Kizer 3404A3- Pictures/Observations

pnsxyr said:
In some ways, Kizer seems to be the Fenix flashlights of knives. And if there is anything we can learn from Fenix, it is that lower-budget items originating from China are often capable of competing (sometimes outcompeting) North American and European makers, and that when this occurs is completely changes the game.
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Good analogy and apt. Not only does Fenix make quality flashlights with great prices but such brands forced SureFire into much better pricing.
 
Okay final testing is done. Quite frankly this is the last time I do a rope test with this knife.
Yesterday I redid the test twice, finally I got fed up and reprofiled it to 20 degrees for the final test.

What I learned:
1. It's got a horrible factory bevel. Well over 20 degrees as mentioned.
2. Once reprofiled to 20 degrees each side it's a great cutter. I would say 17 degree's would be the best.
3. This in my opinion is likely not S35VN. Sorry but either the steel or HT is wrong. I got to 135 cuts before it stopped slicing paper. Finish was in 800 grit, 20 degrees per side. In comparison S30V from Benchmade (similar rated HRC) took 174 cuts. Buck Vantage pro took 183 and 190 cuts (tested twice).


I think I am going to sell this knife if I can get what I paid for it.
 
Luis G. said:
Okay final testing is done. Quite frankly this is the last time I do a rope test with this knife.
Yesterday I redid the test twice, finally I got fed up and reprofiled it to 20 degrees for the final test.

What I learned:
1. It's got a horrible factory bevel. Well over 20 degrees as mentioned.
2. Once reprofiled to 20 degrees each side it's a great cutter. I would say 17 degree's would be the best.
3. This in my opinion is likely not S35VN. Sorry but either the steel or HT is wrong. I got to 135 cuts before it stopped slicing paper. Finish was in 800 grit, 20 degrees per side. In comparison S30V from Benchmade (similar rated HRC) took 174 cuts. Buck Vantage pro took 183 and 190 cuts (tested twice).


I think I am going to sell this knife if I can get what I paid for it.
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You have two factors working against you, the grind and steel. Everything I have seen about S35VN rates it to have lower edge retention but it will keep the razor edge longer, be easier to sharpen, and be tougher. The grind is also extremely thick. The Kizer knives with the blade grind like ours is more suited to hard use because there is so damn much steel behind the edge. You gotta think, you are comparing to knives with likely half as much steel behind the edge.
 
dkb45 said:
You have two factors working against you, the grind and steel. Everything I have seen about S35VN rates it to have lower edge retention but it will keep the razor edge longer, be easier to sharpen, and be tougher. The grind is also extremely thick. The Kizer knives with the blade grind like ours is more suited to hard use because there is so damn much steel behind the edge. You gotta think, you are comparing to knives with likely half as much steel behind the edge.
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What? The knife I have is hollow ground and is actually thinner behind the edge than the Bradley Alias I was comparing it to. (Buck Vantage Pro is similar but just a hair bit thinner by a hair.
 
Luis G. said:
3. This in my opinion is likely not S35VN. Sorry but either the steel or HT is wrong. I got to 135 cuts before it stopped slicing paper. Finish was in 800 grit, 20 degrees per side. In comparison S30V from Benchmade (similar rated HRC) took 174 cuts. Buck Vantage pro took 183 and 190 cuts (tested twice).

.
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Wow, really? What sort of steel do you think it is then? Or what steel is it closest to?
 
jac_solar said:
Wow, really? What sort of steel do you think it is then? Or what steel is it closest to?
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I am afraid I don't know which.
In any case 135 cuts is very good considering 8CR13MOV (and 8CR14MOV) barely made it in range of 70-82 cuts for me on these: Ganzo, CRKT Ripple (chinese one), and 2 Enlans.

Honestly it's very possible that it is indeed S35VN with a non optimal HT but it's hard to conclude. I will go with the safer choice and say it probably isn't S35VN (hope I am wrong). All I know is for $110-$130 it's very good premium blade steel. As I mentioned good rust resistance, good edge retention.

Edit: I have found manila rope to be very unforgiving to edges. Much more so than cardboard.
 
Luis G. said:
What? The knife I have is hollow ground and is actually thinner behind the edge than the Bradley Alias I was comparing it to. (Buck Vantage Pro is similar but just a hair bit thinner by a hair.
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Weird. Mine has roughly the same grind as a ZT 560 and is very thick behind the edge. This was an incorrect assumption on my part, thinking the knife that has an identical shape (almost) would have the same grinds. My best guess is the HT is off, because Kizer did buy S35VN from Crucible.
 
I also have a 3404A3, got it to see what a Kizer was like.
On the whole I like it, light and slim, clean and well made, easy one handed open/close.
Haven't needed to sharpen it yet, when I do it will probably be to 20' or 19' per side.

The only thing I don't like is the tip down carry position, and then only because the flipper can catch in the corner of my right front pants pocket and partially deploy the blade as I pull it from the pocket.
I'm considering removing the clip and carrying it as a light backup folder in a zipped vest pocket.

So far, I like my Kizer and would consider buying another.
 
Luis G. said:
Okay final testing is done. Quite frankly this is the last time I do a rope test with this knife.
Yesterday I redid the test twice, finally I got fed up and reprofiled it to 20 degrees for the final test.

What I learned:
1. It's got a horrible factory bevel. Well over 20 degrees as mentioned.
2. Once reprofiled to 20 degrees each side it's a great cutter. I would say 17 degree's would be the best.
3. This in my opinion is likely not S35VN. Sorry but either the steel or HT is wrong. I got to 135 cuts before it stopped slicing paper. Finish was in 800 grit, 20 degrees per side. In comparison S30V from Benchmade (similar rated HRC) took 174 cuts. Buck Vantage pro took 183 and 190 cuts (tested twice).


I think I am going to sell this knife if I can get what I paid for it.
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I'm guessing a lot of it could be the heat treatment? If the HT is poorly done, cant the same steel vary wildly in how it performs versus specimens in the same steel with a better HT? At the price, I'm actually surprised it did as well as it did! :)
 
dkb45 said:
I think Kizer is proving that some costs for a knife are name. That or they are doing a low intro price to get a foot in the market before they increase (which makes sense). My Kizer is lovely, and although it needed a little tinkering to get perfect I love it now. They are pretty Hinderer-y, but that is good. Similar is not the same, and his designs are a good general platform for a well rounded knife.

I looked at the knife you got, but decided to get the dimpled VG-10 model instead (I think 4404). For $100 I couldn't be much happier, unless the clip was a lefty friendly.
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Really?:rolleyes: I guess you don't think labor costs have anything to do with price?:eek: I doubt those Chinese workers are getting a good wage compared to in the USA. Those cheap prices are coming from somewhere and I would venture to say it is from the sweat of those workers just happy to put a little rice on the table.
 
mmarkh said:
Really?:rolleyes: I guess you don't think labor costs have anything to do with price?:eek: I doubt those Chinese workers are getting a good wage compared to in the USA. Those cheap prices are coming from somewhere and I would venture to say it is from the sweat of those workers just happy to put a little rice on the table.
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We don't know anything about Kizer or their factory. We don't know about working conditions, or wages. What you just said is nothing more and stereotyping, and bigot remarks based on nothing.
 
Luis G. said:
We don't know anything about Kizer or their factory. We don't know about working conditions, or wages. What you just said is nothing more and stereotyping, and bigot remarks based on nothing.
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There are enough kizer threads floating around on this forum, so why dont people ask David from kizer himself?

Just playing devils advocate:p
 
That guy always has remarks like that when it comes to China blades. If its a quality knife, its not American so it sucks. If it has a defect, it sucks because of where its made. If the steel underperforms, its because of the cheating Chinese, if it overperforms, shame on you for supporting it. If its absolutely flawless with the correct steel, it sucks because it's taking away American jobs (unlike his Iphone or Samsung TV). He surely has the right to his opinions and he may very well be right on all of them but the bias is there so take it with a grain if salt. Our knives made here speak for themselves, I see no need to bash something unreasonably just to protect it. Taking true pride in our goods shouldnt make us resort to such tactics. A sign of insecurity. Of weakness. If you think our knives are superior, what's the worry? Who are you trying to convince?
 
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Stays Sharp said:
That guy always has remarks like that when it comes to China blades. If its a quality knife, its not American so it sucks. If it has a defect, it sucks because of where its made. If the steel underperforms, its because of the cheating Chinese, if it overperforms, shame on you for supporting it. If its absolutely flawless with the correct steel, it sucks because it's taking away American jobs (unlike his Iphone or Samsung TV). He surely has the right to his opinions and he may very well be right on all of them but the bias is there so take it with a grain if salt. Our knives made here speak for themselves, I see no need to bash something unreasonably just to protect it. Taking true pride in our goods shouldnt make us resort to such tactics. A sign of insecurity. Of weakness. If you think our knives are superior, what's the worry? Who are you trying to convince?
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I wasn't even commenting on the quality or lack of in regards to Kizer. I took exception to the comment that name is what makes knives expensive. American wages are what they are because of the cost of living here. In China the cost of living is low and a lot of people are just glad to have any job.
 
I like the looks of the knives and the features for the money. I like that they have design elements from other brands but the knives aren't a direct copy of anyone.
 
As has been said before, reputable knife stores like knifeworks would not sell Kizer if they were a suspect company. There are always lemons no matter what product you buy. Humans are not perfect, we make mistakes. I've been intrigued by Kizer for quite sometime, and finally broke down and bought one today. KI405 S35vn wharncliffe. We shall see how it is when it gets here.
 
K.O.D. said:
As has been said before, reputable knife stores like knifeworks would not sell Kizer if they were a suspect company. There are always lemons no matter what product you buy. Humans are not perfect, we make mistakes. I've been intrigued by Kizer for quite sometime, and finally broke down and bought one today. KI405 S35vn wharncliffe. We shall see how it is when it gets here.
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They most definitely would. Or did you forget about mantis, quartermaster and more?

ANyways Knifeworks should be really careful however with shady companies.

One reason shady electronics companies don't find their way into retail locations without being part of the same company is due to one very real issue in the USA: Liability. If a MFG cannot hold warranty or liability (for example: company closes) for the products they make and sell, guess who gets to foot the bill? The retailer. (or wholesaler depends).
Basically it works this way: MFG> Wholesaler>Retailer is the chain of liability.

This is why some mfg'ers prefer OEM'ing instead of selling their own brand. In the case of OEM's the brand company takes liability, and the factory rarely gets any blame due to contracts.
 
1) We do not OEM our knives, we make them in house so if there is a problem, we can go make the changes needed without the extra wait.

2) The subject of the steel has been debated back and forth and even Crucible has replied on this topic. We stand behind our knives and components. If you have conclusive evidence that we have mis-represented ourselves, do post them here. Otherwise we are back in the arena of baseless accusations.

3) I'm not going to discuss it too much as it easily step into the political side but I want to make it clear that we treat our employees fair and well. You can meet some of us at the BLADE 2014 show which is fast coming up.

Thanks.

Kizer.
 
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