KMG's next level ???

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
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This was brought up in Dan's thread about his new Dozier, and it's an interesting topic.

So what do you think Rob could do to take the KMG to the next level? (whatever that means, lol ;) ).

Personally, I love my KMG and will buy another when I build a new shop and have room for it.


The one thing I really don't like is the tool rest. It is only adjustable in/out, and having the bolts underneath the tool rest arm, they are hard to get to. I'm building a different arm for mine. Many of you folks have Michael Kanter's bit-O engineering/fabricating wizardy with the MAP arm.

So what say you??? :)


I'll copy/paste Rob's reply on Dan's thread just for convenience so you can see how well Rob addressed the issue. The thing I love about this, is it's proof positive that Rob is listening, very open to suggestions/criticism, and wants to keep his customers happy!!! Good on 'ya Rob! :D :thumbup:

"What is the "next level"?

The EC platen? It was introduced some 6 years ago...and is still avaliable....but for some, it has problems, ...for others it's the best thing since sliced bread. It reflects the original design goal for the KMG which allows and encourages an unlimited variety of specialized and custom tooling due to its versitility. Since no single tool will satisfy every application, the KMG was intentionally left somewhat "open" for user specific adaptations.

The MAP is another example of this concept.

To me, the "next level" is in your imagination. It's the unique and creative ideas that make you a craftsman and not just another guy tinkering in the shop. Like a painter's brush, or an Indian's arrow...the KMG is just a basic tool where it's ulitimate use is left to the user. The product concept reflects this ideology..starting from the very basics of setting the machine up. This is why the motor is not integrated in the chassis...which would limit your choices. You will ultimately decide how to configure the machine, and how to use it. You can mount it on a stand..or on a bench for example.

The KMG was designed right here, online, on Blade Forums, about 8 or 9 years ago..? (OMGosh, time flys!). Perhaps it's time for the "next level". What would that be?

Dan, your AC-DC comparison is fantastic! It's another aspect that makes this a great thread. I don't think we've ever had a side by side comparison like that before.
I like to run the KB drives with the Slip Compensation turned all the way down. It makes the motor run cooler in the long run by casually allowing for small changes in speed. With the slip comp set agressively, the drive will respond to very minute speed changes with as much electrical power as needed to maintain the set speed. It can be set too agressively such that the drive can actually shut down with an over current fault from trying to maintain the speed in a very small tolerance band. In knifemaking, since a 1-2% change of speed is somewhat negligable...it might not be worth the extra power to maintain it....so it's recommended to loosen up the drive's response a bit by turning down the slip comp. I wonder if this might be the "hiccup" that you've noticed? ...and if adding a bit more slip comp with smooth it out. Anyway, it's very interesting and terrific feedback! It's a luxury to have this kind of feedback!"
 
About 5% of us of are crazy about the tools of the trade more than we are about actually making knifes :)

I don't forsee any revolutionary changes to the KM grinders. Tooling arm was probably the only truly revolutionary change of recent 20 years.

The most welcome add-ons one should consider are:

- Ed Caffrey's 4-in-1 platen-slack-2-contact wheel gizmo
- my clamp-right-onto-tooling-arm disk grinder (as easily it could be turned into a buffer or whatever)
- MAP support arm
- Bader-like clamp design for uber-quick attachment changes

##1,2,4 plus my own very simple support arm/table can be seen in my video
@ http://www.viddler.com/explore/rashid11/videos/1/
 
Ed Caffrey's Platen is HUGE. An adjustable tool rest would be HUGE. Any thing new and exciting would be HUGE!:eek:
 
Horizontal integral grinding small wheel/platen setup.
 
jll346 said:
Ed Caffrey's Platen is HUGE. An adjustable tool rest would be HUGE. Any thing new and exciting would be HUGE!:eek:
Click to expand...

Caffrey sells the platen and Kanter sells the MAP arm. So, why is it so terrible if Rob elects not to make them? They're available in the aftermarket.
 
I am with my good friend Fitz on this... Kanter and Caffrey are offering these options, so I see no need for Rob to tool up for them.

I do appreciate people's suggestions though.

Also, keep in mind that anything you might think of WOULD affect the cost of the machine.
 
My thoughts on this matter are that the KMG does not need to be taken to any "new levels". (there I go, jumping onboard with Nick!):jerkit:

The KMG's popularity is due to its simplicity of design, it's very affordable price, and its rock solid performance. As has been mentioned, various upgrade attachments are available for those who desire them, and most of us who have been using grinders for any length of time, tend to "modify" things to be the way we like them anyway, no mater what machine is involved. I think Rob is doing us a service by NOT changing things on the KMG. I've been down that road with other machines, and IF a part/parts are ever needed, its often a real pain to acquire the part you need if your machine is a generation or two behind what's currently being produced.

My thought is, if it's not broken, it doesn't need to be fixed, and I suspect that if it were to be "taken to the next level", many of the qualities that have made the KMG what it is, would be lost.

From my observation, most peoples' idea of "upgraded design" means more bells and whistles. One thing that all these years of Bladesmithing has taught me is that the more you overtake the plumbing...the easier it is to stop up the drain! The KMG is a model of simplicity, effientceny, and performance (if powered correctly)........keep it the way it is, and let folks modify things to fit their personal tastes/needs.
 
Open the slot at the end of the tool rest mount (if it doesn't warp), so that you can slide it on and off instead of removing the bolts. Also, on the flat platen, the tool rest seems to work fine on the top of the tooling arm.

I'd also second the small wheel angled platen like you and Steve C. set up.

Take care, Craig

edit to add, I agree with Ed C. above that simplicity and solidness are important points for me. It's the very thing that got me to send my money in Rob's direction.
 
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Just wait till you see the new grinder(s) we will have out soon:rolleyes: Cad is done. Probally start producing the prototype next month. 10 are already pre-sold. All I will say is you will never need to buy another attachment or another grinder.;)
 
1 - Angled Tool Rest instead of rotating flat platen


2 - Some kind of setup to run the smaller Bader wheels (1/2" to 1" diameter) - for slack belt grinding.

http://www.dozierknives.com/images/grinder4_small.gif


3 - Direct drive instead of pulley/belt system (can be an option...since having belt/pulley setup is less $$ than a VFD)


4 - Right-hand-side tensioner pulley tracking adjustment and better tension release (no need to have air-fed tension on the KMG)

The tension setup on the KMG is a weak spot that many have made their own adjustments/attachments/alterations to.



5 - lighter tooling arms. 2" square steel bars are too much.


6 - plug-n-play






Like I said in my thread....I liked my KMG...a lot. I made a TON of knives on it.


But there's a reason I upgraded to a Dozier...yes it's an upgrade. To say the KMG does everything the Dozier does would be untrue. To say the Dozier does everything the KMG does and more is not untrue in any way.

I don't think the question is "Is there anything wrong with the KMG?".....but rather...."What could be done to make it even better?"

Why couldn't there be a "1st class" version of the KMG? (and still keep the budget version) *shrug*



I don't think even the most loyal of loyalists would assert that there's no room for improvement.

Neither is the Dozier "perfect"....as you can see in my thread...I've already started making changes to it. :D



Great thread, Nick...glad to see some discussion on this idea. Hopefully we'll get some good suggestions....from those who use other brands too (Bader, Wilton, etc.)

:thumbup:

Dan
 
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yall all are talking through the viewpoint of full time knifemakers it seems. It seems like the common factor here is time. correct me if im wrong but isnt anything you wanted to do-- as far as grinding-- can be done with even the most basic set ups on any of these machines and that one would pick one over the other simply because they make alot of knives and want to have there business and time as efficient as possible .Or is there really some kind of grinds rhat just cant be done on one or the other---for a part timer who want to do a 20 knive aa year is there anything he couldnt do with a simple bader or kmg, or coote,or grizzly or dozier
 
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I would like to see some sort of sheetmetal housing to help with dust
control. However the difference in where the belt sits with the 14 inch wheel, compared to the platen makes hard to come up with a housing.

As far as lighter tooling arms, for my small wheels I have had good results with making them out of a piece of oak.
 
I'd like to throw for discussion my preference for belt drive. When I first saw the KMG, I thought now I have some options. I've heard folks say belts slip (?), but I just haven't seen it at all. Any specific advantages to direct drive? Just curious.

Take care, Craig
 
jll346 said:
Ed Caffrey's Platen is HUGE. An adjustable tool rest would be HUGE. Any thing new and exciting would be HUGE!
Click to expand...

The MAP Arm can be rotated and adjusted to be used as a "horizontal" grinder saving saving on floor space and the cost of another motor. You can also use all of your existing tooling arms/contact wheels saving even more money. I cant think of a degree of movement that cant be obtained with the MAP Arm. If you already own a KMG, you can get a MAP Arm for $430 plus shipping. Thats a alot less than the $3500 for a Dozier.

I am not saying anything negitive about the Dozier but what can that do that a KMG equiped with a MAP Arm cant do?

What about a KMG with a MAP Arm and a Cafrey platten?
 
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cdent said:
Any specific advantages to direct drive? Just curious. Take care, Craig
Click to expand...

I'm not an engineer...so I can't do the explanation justice.

Simply put: no belt = no slip...ever. *shrug*


adammichael said:
I cant think of a degree of movement that cant be obtained with the MAP Arm. If you already own a KMG, you can get a MAP Arm for $430 plus shipping. Thats a alot less than the $3500 for a Dozier.

I am not saying anything negitive about the Dozier but what can that do that a KMG equiped with a MAP Arm cant do?

What about a KMG with a MAP Arm and a Cafrey platten?
Click to expand...

I never had a chance to work with the MAP Arm...so I don't know. But I did use both a KMG and a Dozier for about 3 years before buying my Dozier...and when I looked at the MAP Arm...(which was very, very tempting)...I realized it would only solve a part of what I wanted for my "upgrade"...while the Dozier did it all.




KMG-CH = 605 (only need the chassis if you're getting the Caffrey platen)
Base plate = 115 (I included this since the Dozier comes with a stand)
14" wheel & tooling arm = 495
Small wheel attachment w/ tooling arm (not a fair comparison) = 163
2HP motor & drive = 814
MAP Arm = 430
Caffrey platen = 350

I get $2972 actually....*shrug*

I save $28....and I still don't have direct drive or a good slack-belt setup....and have to fab a better tensioner arm and tracking wheel.




I used my KMG for 4.5 years before getting the Dozier. I used BOTH a KMG and a Dozier for ~3 of those years. I have nothing against Rob or the KMG...it is what it is - and does it great. I'm supremely grateful for it...remember this? http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281333 = ME.

I have just outgrown it, that's all. I wish I could have kept it, honestly. I would have been happy if it could have matched the Dozier. More crap to give Tom. :D
I really wish I could have used the MAP Arm too...brilliant design.



If anybody here has used a Dozier on a regular basis and also used a KMG....or switched to a KMG instead....I'd love to hear their point of view...I'm feeling rather one-sided.


Dan
 
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This is really good stuff!

Why direct drive? Who's belt is slipping...why not tighten it? Direct drive goes against the original design philosophy in that it limits your options and versitility. An intergrated motor means that you no longer have speed choices unless you use a VS motor. It also limits you to a specific motor frame size..and somewhat to a specific speed range. With an integrated motor, the package space of the set-up is also dictated, where as a shaft drive allows you the versitility to mount the motor where you choose in order to optimize your shop space. One of the biggest reasons for a shaft drive is the enourmous costs savings potential for those that already have a motor laying around. If you want "direct drive"...you can still do that by coupling the motor to the KMG drive shaft. With a drive shaft, you have all of the choices and options of a machine with and integrated motor...plus more. Do you really want something less? Take a look at Dan's thread listed above. It exemplifies this concept.. It's an $875 variable speed KMG. This is the very core of the KMG concept.


If anybody here has used a Dozier on a regular basis and also used a KMG....or switched to a KMG instead....I'd love to hear their point of view...I'm feeling rather one-sided.

Dan

Hang in there Dan, feeling one sided is probably from the fact that there more KMG ownwers out here than Dozier owners. Since most of the Grinder Wars are based on subjective topics, we get a different opinion under each leaf that we look under. A positive aspect to one person might be a negative apect to someone else. Your posts are tremedously noteable in the sense that you are clearly distinquishing your opinion and facts. Both, which are truly appreciated. The thread that you've referenced above clearly shows the "spirit" and benifits around the KMG. $875 for that variable speed set-up is a tremedous value. You can have more than 3 of those set-ups for the price detailed in your thread above . Would it be better to have 3 machines side by side or just one "super machine" with every widget and gizmo imaginable? Of course there will be answers for both options...hee hee!


Yes, the KMG work rest is very basic. It is more about liability than anything else. I don't think many here were around when Burr King was in litigation over a knifemaker's accident which took the machine off the market for a while...and introduced the "Hardcore". Anyway, a knifemaker sued BurrKing after his blade fell in between the work rest and belt. It was forcefully ejected and stabbed him. I heard of more than one old-timer tool and die maker that lost a thumb the same way on a bench grinder. Work rests can be hazardous. The hazards increase with the amount of adjustments and articulations which presents more oportunities for an accident. So, Beaumont Metal Works has elected to stay out of the specialized work rest business. We've made them...and given them away for evaluation, I use them daily...but we won't market and sell them. It has been our experience that this aspect of the machine becomes somewhat personalized and it is difficult to come up with a single design that works well for most. It is the most difficult, awkward and risky part of the grinder business. This would also limit your own imagination as to what you can do with the KMG.

On another note, back to the EC platen. That was basically a blatent copy of the Square wheel platen. Ed really wanted another Square Wheel..but didn't like the quality of the machines.....So we came up with a KMG that was "Wilton-ized" to meet his requirements. Yes, you can use a Square Wheel attachment on the KMG. It has a 3/4" stub shaft for mounting requiring the tool arm for the Rotary Platen.


Anyway....let's continue this discussion....Hopefully, the Grinder Wars will never end.

-Rob
 
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rfrink said:
Since most of the Grinder Wars are based on subjective topics, we get a different opinion under each leaf that we look under. A positive aspect to one person might be a negative apect to someone else. .......
Click to expand...

That right there is the most important statement in this thread! :thumbup: It is very difficult to separate personal preferences from objectivity.

I am glad you mentioned your reasons for the simplicity of the workrest, Rob. You told me the "why" years ago, but I've always felt it was a private communication, and have been reluctant to mention it on the forums. Hopefully people can now better understand the reasoning why most manufacturers don't offer complicated rests with their grinders when the workpiece is to be handheld.
 
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