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Knife Abuse
- Thread starter KennyB
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- Mar 15, 2000
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- 45,835
Ya lost me.
Just having a little fun at the expense of skewed logic.
Exhibit A:
Exhibit B:
http://www.knifetests.com/
I agree with you, but my main point is that it's really not a life-or-death thing and really the majority of people I see using a knife make the choice to use it in this fashion. Now that is not to comment on most edge professionals, but what I'm saying is that the "average Joe" type does not need a life-or-death situation to come about to use a knife for something other than its intended purpose.
I'm also not sure why I shouldn't tell another tradesmen to do something with his knife that it wasn't meant for since that would basically be implying a dangerous element. If I say, "Oh, yeah, you can just use your knife to pry open that paint can," I'm pretty sure the person would have some small question to the safety of doing that and then can decide if they want to or not based on that. On the other hand, if I'm working with a person and tell them to do something unsafe with a knife ( or at least as obviously unsafe as using them as a prybar ) that's not really my problem. I mean, sorry, but I'm talking about using a knife to get a job done, and sometimes people with less wisdom or experience just wind up getting hurt, and that can be said for a lot more tools than just a knife.
Guyon, I believe you've missed my point, because from what I've seen none of those conclusions come to, "This is a bad knife because it can't cut this or that" If they have said "This is a bad knife" at all it's based on what they've reviewed it for, and I really don't know why people have such an issue with people using and reviewing tools for tasks they weren't intended for.
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You just answered you own question in this one sentence. "Using tools for tasks that they weren't intended for." Why use a tool for a task that it wasn't intended for? You use the proper tool for the job. That's why the tool was produced in the first place. Anytime you decide to use the wrong tool for the job, especially one with a sharp edge and point, you are leaving yourself open to chance of injury which is just not smart. To me it shows a great amount of laziness when someone doesn't want to go retrieve the right tool for the job and instead uses whatever they have on them at the time.
Shortcuts are easy and that's why they're called shortcuts, but shortcuts also lead to sloppy work that can end up being dangerous. I can only comment on my own trade, but when you get lazy and start taking shortcuts around live electricity that's when you end up electrocuting yourself, blowing a hand off, dying, or even worse yet killing someone else. Why take the chance? Use the right tool for the job.
Laziness?
What if someone does not have the proper tool? Are they supposed toj ust go out and purchase it? What if the proper tool actually costs more than the knife that they're risking damaging? What if they simply do not have the time to go out and purchase the "proper tool".
Better ( and more common ) yet: What if they simply do not know the "proper tool"?
I worked and studied as a machinist, so I know both the important of using the right tool and the likelihood that someone won't, my real question is why people get so bent out of shape by someone using a tool correctly and then evaluating how that tool performed in that job. Sure it might not be the way the tool was supposed to be used, it might be dangerous, and it isn't the "proper" way, but does that invalidate the review that the person gave the tool for that task? Does that reduce the merit of that review? I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but my personal opinion is that getting a job done quickly and efficiently lends itself to safety ( less time for something to go wrong ) and if you have to use a tool a way it wasn't intended to be used in order to fulfill that then so be it.
I suppose it's because I'm use to things like telling someone not to grind aluminum on an aluminum oxide grinding wheel. That is genuine, extremely dangerous, abuse. It doesn't serve to get the job done faster, and is just nothing but 100% ignorance and laziness. I can't really think of one "abuse" operation of a knife that is comparatively unsafe, lazy and just downright stupid as something like that, and in fact pretty much every abuse I can think of for a knife is just a user getting a job done with a tool that wasn't meant to do it because of some circumstance, usually something like a time or cost restraint.
Anyway, my main point here isn't that I think people should use knives for tasks they weren't intended for, just that we shouldn't necessarily discourage it or even care because I don't believe it really discourages people from using one particular knife, and it encourages innovation.
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To be honest with you, if one doesn't have the right tool for the job, one should not be doing the job. If I had to have a plumber come into my home and he walked in with a screwdriver and a knife I'd tell him to kick rocks and I'd find a qualified professional with the right tools. If you don't have the righ tool then yes you go out and buy it or borrow it. Time is a factor on all jobs, but again, would you risk cutting a finger off because you wanted to save a half hour trip to a hardware store? You talk about expense. I don't care if the knife is a $10 knife or a $1000 knife, if it's not being used for a cutting task then it's being used improperly. And if it is being used for cutting, but for the wrong type of cutting then, again, it is being used improperly. I'm not going to use a $30 knife to cut 1" thick copper cable, but I will use an $800 Gator tool to do the job. I'm not worried about cost, I'm worried about injury or death.
If I'm working and I see another guy misusing a tool then fine, if he's moronic and lazy enough to not walk over to his toolbag and grab the right tool then it's on him when he gets hurt. I didn't tell him to use the tool that way. Then there is the other side of the coin where you see someone using a tool in an improper manner and you walk over and tell them and maybe show them the right way. It always feels good to help someone out and maybe even teach them something, but to teach someone how to take a shortcut that may possibly get him injured isn't helping, it's hurting. Yes, to me it's a lazy and poor craftsman who uses shortcuts and improper tools to get the job done.
As far as guys testing knives in other ways besides what they were made for. Great. Make those videos and teach me something, but these guys are usually safe with their testing. It's not some guy trying to pry open something on the job with his razor sharp knife. It's usually in a controlled environment where they are wearing safety gear.
If I'm working and I see another guy misusing a tool then fine, if he's moronic and lazy enough to not walk over to his toolbag and grab the right tool then it's on him when he gets hurt. I didn't tell him to use the tool that way. Then there is the other side of the coin where you see someone using a tool in an improper manner and you walk over and tell them and maybe show them the right way. It always feels good to help someone out and maybe even teach them something, but to teach someone how to take a shortcut that may possibly get him injured isn't helping, it's hurting. Yes, to me it's a lazy and poor craftsman who uses shortcuts and improper tools to get the job done.
As far as guys testing knives in other ways besides what they were made for. Great. Make those videos and teach me something, but these guys are usually safe with their testing. It's not some guy trying to pry open something on the job with his razor sharp knife. It's usually in a controlled environment where they are wearing safety gear.
I don't think there's really that much risk in having your finger cut off opening a paint can. Sure there may be for other unorthodox tasks, but you can always tell someone to be careful about it if that's the case. Why is this detrimental when it can help them get their job done without any expense ( time or monetary ) from them?
I mean, you can say all you want about poor craftsmanship, but if I had a painter show up without a prybar to open his paint can take off to Home Depot to buy one, I'd tell him not to come back. On the other hand, if he had a pocket knife and a little bit of caution, he could keep his fingers and his job.
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Prying the top off a paint can is something that would break the tip off many knives. If you was going to bother to paint, you could bother to have a little paint can opener that is designed to do the job and not damage the lid, so it can reseal well and not dry up the leftover paint. My Dad won't even use a screwdriver on a paint lid because it pulls the lid's edge up. Everyone can do whatever they like with their knives. Using one for a screwdriver and other tasks isn't smart and will just ensure that you will ruin it. If it's thick enough to do something like open a paint can lid and not snap the tip, then it's going to be too thick for many cutting purposes.
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i (mostly) agree with Kenny B
but remember - for every gain there is a loss. you never get something for nothing. you can't baton with a scapel and you can't perform surgery with a bowie.
that said - i'm am leaning more and more off center towards the knives that sacrifice a little of their (delicate) cutting proficiency in exchange for the ability to perform more demanding tasks.
JEKOSTAS - which argument is lending support to the restriction? the "a knife is only for cutting or stabbing"? or the whole "used to open paint cans"? if you're referring to the frist, i agree. it is important we demonstrate how important knives are as a multi-purpose tool that just happense to a blade that is quick/easy to present
but remember - for every gain there is a loss. you never get something for nothing. you can't baton with a scapel and you can't perform surgery with a bowie.
that said - i'm am leaning more and more off center towards the knives that sacrifice a little of their (delicate) cutting proficiency in exchange for the ability to perform more demanding tasks.
JEKOSTAS - which argument is lending support to the restriction? the "a knife is only for cutting or stabbing"? or the whole "used to open paint cans"? if you're referring to the frist, i agree. it is important we demonstrate how important knives are as a multi-purpose tool that just happense to a blade that is quick/easy to present
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I really think people who use tools frequently know the drill "Do not use as prybar, chisel or punch" That saying applies to screw drivers mostly.
"Do not use as hammer" applies mostly to wrenches.
People know not to abuse calibrated torque wrenches or torque screw drivers.
Knives are for cutting, that's what most are designed to do, sure there are exceptions but they prove the rule.
"Do not use as hammer" applies mostly to wrenches.
People know not to abuse calibrated torque wrenches or torque screw drivers.
Knives are for cutting, that's what most are designed to do, sure there are exceptions but they prove the rule.
BryFry
Gold Member
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^ This.
To the OP, I totally get what you're saying, and I agree. Some knives can handle a lot more that than simple delicate cutting, and when it comes down to it, it's YOUR KNIFE you can do what ever you want with it.
I don't get the guys who are like "a knife can ONLY be used for one thing! And anyone who uses a knife for something that I don't must be mentally deficient." :thumbdn:
That is what inovation is all about. That is how improvemenets in both design and matterial come about.
Why should anyone get upset over what someone else does with THEIR knife? If it makes them happy to "abuse " it, or if they simply need a knife to perform a task other than simple cutting, because it's what they have on them when the task is needed, why knock them for it?
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Ok, here's why I want a tough knife. First of all, I carry a knife optimized for cutting things. That's my EDC utility knife. But besides my Glock I carry a knife that I don't use for anything. This is my dedicated SD folder. It's for when SHTF. Whether that happens or not I'd like it with most of the time. Now if I'm attacked by zombie supermen and the only green kryptonite is in a paint can, I'd need to open it up in hurry and I know for sure my Glock won't cut it(pun intended). Enter my hard use knife.
OTOH, I may actually need it to cut or pierce something hard like a car hood or a steel drum(might also be another body) to save a life(my own or a loved one's) or even just prevent serious bodily harm. That will be the time that I'd consider my expensive sharpened prybar as completely paying for itself when it doesn't close on my fingers or fall apart.
Now if you don't agree with me, I couldn't care less.
OTOH, I may actually need it to cut or pierce something hard like a car hood or a steel drum(might also be another body) to save a life(my own or a loved one's) or even just prevent serious bodily harm. That will be the time that I'd consider my expensive sharpened prybar as completely paying for itself when it doesn't close on my fingers or fall apart.
Now if you don't agree with me, I couldn't care less.
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My answer (opinion) to most knife abuse cases:
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=HVA+502+64+02+01&catID=11868
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=HVA+502+64+02+01&catID=11868
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- Dec 10, 2006
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- 5,978
Why do I keep falling into these threads! They ad nothing new to the past 4 years of the same debate of hard cutting vs hard use vs abuse. Hard use/abuse/ use of a knife.....its your own opinion what you classify as what and why you justify carrying a certain knife.
To some it is a tool for many things (people serving in the war....but most of them carry a multitool and a fixed blade, or at least that is most recommended over the past years on this forum and most agreed upon by those who served) to others it is just to cut. Some feel the need to use knife as a SD weapon, others debate it is not a weapon a tool first and foremost (then debate about if you should draw the knife, might provoce the attacker, he might have a concealed fire arm, by relying on your 'knife as a weapon' are you limiting your ability to attack because you have more confidence in the weapon then your ability to do violence). Debate about sharpened prybar vs scalpel (people do send their sharpened pry bars to Tom Krein for a reground because they want them to cut better and not be as thick, so to some they buy a sharpened prybar and make it a scalpel, so buy hard use folders and make them a slicer). It is all up to one thing....what works best for you in your everyday life.
Personally I think people have forgotten the use of an axe.You get well made axes and crappy made axes the same as knives. It seems most debate is going on about a knife being used to baton, folders specifically. Hech if someone else wants to baton a knife go at it! It is your money. You paid for it, do what you want with it. But if the maker of that knife feels it is abuse then you will void your warranty. They have their opinions the same as us.
To some it is a tool for many things (people serving in the war....but most of them carry a multitool and a fixed blade, or at least that is most recommended over the past years on this forum and most agreed upon by those who served) to others it is just to cut. Some feel the need to use knife as a SD weapon, others debate it is not a weapon a tool first and foremost (then debate about if you should draw the knife, might provoce the attacker, he might have a concealed fire arm, by relying on your 'knife as a weapon' are you limiting your ability to attack because you have more confidence in the weapon then your ability to do violence). Debate about sharpened prybar vs scalpel (people do send their sharpened pry bars to Tom Krein for a reground because they want them to cut better and not be as thick, so to some they buy a sharpened prybar and make it a scalpel, so buy hard use folders and make them a slicer). It is all up to one thing....what works best for you in your everyday life.
Personally I think people have forgotten the use of an axe.You get well made axes and crappy made axes the same as knives. It seems most debate is going on about a knife being used to baton, folders specifically. Hech if someone else wants to baton a knife go at it! It is your money. You paid for it, do what you want with it. But if the maker of that knife feels it is abuse then you will void your warranty. They have their opinions the same as us.
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I'd seriously like to know what sort of scenario would actually require the use of a pocket knife to cut through something like a car hood? Let's even say a car door for that matter?
My take is people can do what they want with the knives they buy, but shouldn't be surprised if(or when) those same knives do a poor job doing things other than cutting. Further to that, they probably should'nt complain if (or when) the knife does poorly.
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Any painter that is doing so as an income source has a 4-in-1 or 5-in-1 tool designed to open paint cans. It is the Swiss Army Knife of the painters world. No need to break the point off of a good pocket knife opening a paint can.
Prying tools are not heat treated to 55+ Rc and are made to be prying tools not to sharpen pencils or open mail or whittle.
As I answer this, I am getting a feeling that you just wanted to set us off.
I have two of my dad's Schrades in my desk drawer here. On one, the point of the main clip blade is broken and is about 3/16" maybe a little less across the flat. It now will doube as a small slotted head screwdriver. He was probably trying to pry on something when he did that. The other one has the tip of the sheepsfoot broken. Probably he was trying to use it to remove a Phillips head screw when he did that. So, he damaged both of these knives trying to do stuff that he should not have been trying to do. They weren't designed to do those tasks and he should not have tried to use them that way.
I had another one of his at one time (don't know where it is now) that he tried to strip insulation off of a hot wire and accidently touched a ground. That one has a nice semi-circular divot in the edge. I'll bet that was exciting.
Ed
Prying tools are not heat treated to 55+ Rc and are made to be prying tools not to sharpen pencils or open mail or whittle.
As I answer this, I am getting a feeling that you just wanted to set us off.
I have two of my dad's Schrades in my desk drawer here. On one, the point of the main clip blade is broken and is about 3/16" maybe a little less across the flat. It now will doube as a small slotted head screwdriver. He was probably trying to pry on something when he did that. The other one has the tip of the sheepsfoot broken. Probably he was trying to use it to remove a Phillips head screw when he did that. So, he damaged both of these knives trying to do stuff that he should not have been trying to do. They weren't designed to do those tasks and he should not have tried to use them that way.
I had another one of his at one time (don't know where it is now) that he tried to strip insulation off of a hot wire and accidently touched a ground. That one has a nice semi-circular divot in the edge. I'll bet that was exciting.
Ed
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That, my friend, is called trying to be funny. But then again, if I knew exactly what scenario I'd be facing then I could bring the right tool, wouldn't you say?