Knife blanks and cheating?

[Kevin McGovern]

I should have sad have you ever or can you. In regards to profiling the blank I think the design is more important than the method. But that's just my two cents

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[R.C.Reichert]

I figured I would resurrect this old thread. I recently inquired about setting up a table at a custom knife show. I was told that I may not be allowed to sell my knives there because I have them waterjetted out. To be honest it never even occurred to me that it would be an issue. Now I design the knife myself on AutoCAD and send the file to the waterjet company. It would not be practical for a custom knife owner to owner waterjet. I think there is a distinction between personally preferring knives made without a waterjet, versus saying that a waterjet is not a legitimate custom knife. In terms of repeatability a waterjet is not dramatically different than tracing a pattern. I typically have a fair amount of cleanup to do even after the waterjet is done.

It feels a little bit to me like for some if you do not do it the way they do it then you're not doing it right. In the case of the waterjet it is not like you're picking patterns out of a pattern book and saying make me those, but in my case I literally start with a blank file and draw the knife I want. Sometimes I print it out to scale to see what it looks like, sometimes I even cut it out in wood to see it in real life before I send it out to get cut.

I am surprised this is even still a debate, and I suspect that this knife show that I inquired about has a number of makers who are using a waterjet, most likely because they are smart. In fact I know a number of makers are using waterjet because they're using the same waterjet that I am. I also know some of them want to keep it hush-hush. I just think we should come Out of the closet about the waterjet and conced that it is fair game.

I would still consider this knifemaking because you would still need to grind the bevels and drill the holes and put the handle on. What I was referring to was something more akin to kit building, where all you would need to do really is assemble the piece.

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[KnuckleDownKnives]

. As mentioned before every makes a distinction somewhere, some might say unless you forge you are not a real knife maker.

If this were the case the people that only make knives out of high end stainless alloy metals wouldn't be considered knife makers. Or at least I certainly haven't heard one anyone forging S30V, S35VN, 440C. Sounds like not calling a brick mason a brick mason because a foundation was dug with a backhoe and not a shovel.

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[kuraki]

The only time the method of manufacture is debated, rather than the quality or performance of the finished product, is when makers feel like asserting some arbitrary pecking order based on effort and nostalgia. Customers don't care how the product was manufactured as long as it meets the criteria of what they agreed to purchase for the price they paid.

I've heard this argument 1,000 times in different places. "He doesn't hand lap his dies. He's not a real toolmaker." Even though grinding them with a 1200 grit diamond wheel on a Mitsui grinder leaves them flatter and sharper than any die rubbed on 3M lapping paper. "You have to single point bore a hole to make it truly round." Even though modern machine tools can interpolate circular features to a greater degree of circularity than most inspection methods can detect deviation from. "He's not a real programmer he uses CAM software." "Not a real designer, uses CAD." Ad nauseum.

Unless the customer specifies a desire to purchase something produced via specific method, hand forged, hand finished to x grit, etc, they don't care how it was produced if the finished product meets their performance criteria.

If it's a question of "custom" or "one of a kind" it still does not matter how it was produced, if only one is produced, it is one of a kind. If it was produced to specifications and dimensions provided by the customer, it was custom. Whether it was forged, laser cut, water jet, machined, filed, rubbed or buffed or etched or painted or diamond coated.

Any other definition leads to arbitrary constraints of what constitutes the definition of "x-maker" that is inevitably skewed towards the benefit of the one proposing the definition.

You're not a toolmaker because you don't hand lap dies like I do.
You're not a machinist because you use computer controls rather than indexing heads and long hand trig like I do.
You're not a knifemaker because you X and I Y.

Whatever. I've never cared what my title was. I just like to make things that meet the needs of the people I make them for.

 

[Ken H>]

I do not qualify. I have mine profiled with a water jet and sent out for heat treat.

If I understand the show's requirements correctly, if you owned the waterjet and pushed the button to start machine to cut blanks it'd be ok? But, since you allowed somebody else to push the button on their machine it's not ok? Hmmm - interesting.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I think the problem is folks trying to fit this craft into only a few categories. I see it like this...

"Knifemaker" is a broad term that essentially encompasses what we do. Titles like "bladesmith" give a more specific picture but there is still room for movement. My advice to makers is if you pride yourself on doing specific processes of knifemaking, in-house... let it be known. And while it goes without saying that claiming authorship of things you don't do is a no-no, sometimes NOT divulging farmed out aspects of knifemaking can be a bit deceptive, too.

Be honest and transparent.

 

[Park Swan]

Be honest and transparent.

Quoted for veracity.


My perspective is that, when viewing the body of work put forth by all knifemakers as a whole, there is much greater room for improvement in the design area than in the finishing area. There are plenty of knifemakers who can execute a design well, I think the amount who can actually design a knife and finish it well is far fewer.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I guess that 'cheating' in the purest definition would be any method that doesn't originate with forging your own blank from bog iron or another method of refining raw ore dug from the ground. That being said, what you're doing is certainly not cheating. It would be great to see some of your designs.

 

[no.4shot]

Quoted for veracity.


My perspective is that, when viewing the body of work put forth by all knifemakers as a whole, there is much greater room for improvement in the design area than in the finishing area. There are plenty of knifemakers who can execute a design well, I think the amount who can actually design a knife and finish it well is far fewer.

The Golden Mean is something very rarely brought up on this forum. If you go to other forums like one for building long rifle it is brought up all the time. The Golden Mean is a subject study all of its own.

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I wish people wouldn't pussy foot around with using nondescript terms like ."A show" and "A supplier" ... just tell us the show's name. We will have a far better conversation then, and people who attend that show will be able to add real content to this thread as well as mention this to the show directors. The rules may need updating. Some rules were made before there was any such thing as a laser cutter or waterjet.

Heat treatment is an issue that has people on both sides of the argument. I think it is a wise knifemaker who sends his blades to Peters and thus guarantees a top rate HT if he doesn't have the skills or equipment to do it. There are some who do it themselves, and their HT results don't always work so well ... some from people who sell their knives at these shows.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Heat treatment is an issue that has people on both sides of the argument. I think it is a wise knifemaker who sends his blades to Peters and thus guarantees a top rate HT. I have seen a lot of home shop HT results that did not equal a good knife ... some from people who sell their knives at these shows.

This is how we get into trouble, Stacy. I do my own heat treating and guaranty it. I know many makers who do. I don't have anything "special" in the way of equipment... kiln, forge, and access to an HRC tester. Your reply suggests that only a professional heat treating company can do a quality job. Can only a professional knifemaking company make a quality knife? Can only a professional Goldsmith company make quality jewelery? I consider myself just as professional as any heat treat service when it comes to the steel I use. I believe I know what you meant, but we need to consider what we imply when we make general statements like that.... and how it can affect the reputation and livelihood of others.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yeah, Rick, I knew that would be the reply from someone.

My comment was to point out that some of these rules exclude a professional HT, when the HT done by some makers is of less quality. I agree that those who have the skills and wish to do their own can have very high quality results. I was only stating that just because it is done in-shop does not automatically guarantee it is a good HT.

As I stated, there are two camps on HT - do it yourself, or send it out. Both have arguments pro and con.







I clarified a few words in the post, but I feel my comments were not ambiguous.

 

[Josh Rider]

This is how we get into trouble, Stacy. I do my own heat treating and guaranty it. I know many makers who do. I don't have anything "special" in the way of equipment... kiln, forge, and access to an HRC tester. Your reply suggests that only a professional heat treating company can do a quality job. Can only a professional knifemaking company make a quality knife? Can only a professional Goldsmith company make quality jewelery? I consider myself just as professional as any heat treat service when it comes to the steel I use. I believe I know what you meant, but we need to consider what we imply when we make general statements like that.... and how it can affect the reputation and livelihood of others.

Rick, how do you respond to people when asked about the hardness number? The only reason I ask is because I've seen people ask those questions in the exchange.

 

[AVigil]

I think Joe Caswell said it well....

 

[bflying]

I sure hope there are not any machined parts on any of my ZT's. I was told they were "high end" knives.

I still have a blade blank that I purchased in an 8th grade metal shop class (won't say how many decades ago that was). Is a full tang fixed blade with the blade shape and size almost identical to my Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter folder. I did a little reshaping, a lot of sanding/finishing on it as a kid. But unfortunately never finished the oak handle I made for it. Got the scales to about 85%, then never brought it to completion. But for some reason I've kept it around all these years. And to this day, the blade hangs on a magnet in my closet and I see it every single day. The almost handles (and original brass rivets purchased) have been kept too, and are in a duffle bag that contains much of my sharpening gear.

Crap, I could have been a knife maker. Needless to say, my knife making life is lived vicariously through all of you....from adding handles to pre-ground blanks to hand forging damascus. Keep it up and keep showing your work, no matter what level of manufacture.

 

[Park Swan]

The Golden Mean is something very rarely brought up on this forum. If you go to other forums like one for building long rifle it is brought up all the time. The Golden Mean is a subject study all of its own.

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I am not familiar with long rifle forums. Could it be that builders of a long rifle have a tighter grouping (teehee) of end goals, whereas there are myriad uses and types of knives to be built?

It could still apply to much of the design in this community, as there are design principles which apply to just about every type of design, but the general mindset might not be up to the type of criticism required to improve on that front (or others).

 

[Ken H>]

Rick, how do you respond to people when asked about the hardness number? The only reason I ask is because I've seen people ask those questions in the exchange.

I suppose he simply tells them the Rc number he got when testing since he mentioned having "access to an HRC tester."

 

[LARRYZ10]

This is pretty simple.

If you want to be called a knifemaker, you have to make the knife...period.

Al P

www.polkowskiknives.com

So Al , You mine the ore., smelt it, and forge the stock before you grind it to shape and finish it. Good for you. I have made and sold hundreds of knives and I call myself a knife maker. I have used Damascus blanks to make knives by stock reduction many times and I call my self a knife maker. I can grind anything I want from the many bars of steel I have bought but I do not forge my steel before grinding. Am I still a knife maker? Look, I don't make multiple knives in the same pattern because I do not want to manufacture knives but I understand that some guys are trying to make a living from making knives and so I try not to be too critical of their methods. I make one of a kind knives but all are pointed on one end and sharp on the bottom and have a place to hold onto...I have invented nothing...but I call myself a knife maker. Maybe I am something else. Larry

 

[Josh Rider]

I suppose he simply tells them the Rc number he got when testing since he mentioned having "access to an HRC tester."

Yes indeedy. I must have read read Rick's response wrong.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Rick, how do you respond to people when asked about the hardness number? The only reason I ask is because I've seen people ask those questions in the exchange.

I zero in my heat treat regime with Rockwell testing, both post quench and post temper. I do it for the same reasons I calibrate my kiln or any other sensitive equipment... when I change a parameter, material or when the ambient temperature changes in my shop(Summer-Winter). I do not measure the HRC of every knife that leaves my shop... but I stand by my "happiness guaranty" when it comes to performance and finish