Knife blanks and cheating?

Sigh...

Well "Chief" this ole Sargeant isn't about to get into a urinary olympiad with you in front of the world. You're more than welcome to email me privately at (will46r at yahoo) or via the PM system here on BF.

As far as being one of those people that exist on every forum, yep I probably am. I moderate what is considered the best baseball umpiring list server in CONUS, 90% of us work International, D1 with the lowest level being High School playoffs. I've spent years of my life answering questions on forums like "how many strikes in an out and please help me define infield fly rule." Then all of us that answered these questions retreated into a place where those umpires coiuldn't get to us. I will tell you that this is happening on Bladeforums, there are very well known makers that are retreating into a fortress of solitude to get away from the white noise generated by people unwilling to do an hour of research and DEMANDING answers from our years of experience, when given the advice they choose to argue and demean.

Let me reiterate my stance...

Repurposing an old blade, finishing a kit knife IS NOT MAKING A KNIFE. You are customizing or rehandling or modding a knife. When you put the bevels in, send it off or heat treat it yourself then finish it; YOU ARE MAKING A KNIFE.

Feel free to email me.
 
I agree with jason and Will . If your a honest person you would tell the buyer what he is getting and how it was made .To hide this is like being a cheat plain and simple. I sell blanks that were not ground by me but I also tell the people buying them how and what I did to finish the knife off. Knives like that are also 1/3 the price of my custom knives and some people just dont want an expensive knife. My personal opinion im not cheap and would pay the extra money for quality but alot of people are plain and simply CHEAP
 
In my opinion a knifemaker should do as much of the work as his abilities and tools allow. If he does not have the ability or tool to perform a certain task, he should farm it out until he acquires the skill/tool. I started with only a desire to make knives. I am SLOWLY acquiring tools and skills. And yes I have plans to one day make my own steel, tan my own leather, everything. I don't know how long it will take. but it is my plan. The way I'm going I should finish my first TRUE sole proprietorship knife when I'm about 247 years old HEHEHE. MERRY CHRISTMAS
 
well a question that could only reaaly be answered by ones own standard is hard to answer. it takes time to learn about knife making and all the different angles. One must educate oneself to knife making. stock removal. forging, premade blanks, custom cut blanks etc....I dont know how to answer that question excepy for my own opinion. i do not believe one can call themselves a knife maker if they bought a pre made grinded beveled knife and put handles on it. I dont disagree with blanks as long as the maker does all the grinding him/herslf. There are many thoughts on this and i know from my personal experience-when i was doing kits -i never felt like i could call myself a knifemaker. I do mostly stock removal and starting forging. I must say stock removal is great and it is a knifemaker that performs this--since i started trying forging i feel a more personal contact with this craft. I love stock removal but in this early stage of my forging ( maybe cause its new) i feel more of a connection wo=ith the hammer the forge the steel , the sound, the sweat..... anyway all is good call yourself what you want-just let the customers know your procrdure--marekz
 
As can be seen from the entertaining posts on this topic, it depends on whom you ask. On Jay Fisher's site he states that he won't even let anyone else sweep his shop. My personal opinion is that profiling requires the least amount of artistic ability (or knowledge/experience) of all the knifemaking steps. If it can be done by machine from drawings the artist created, it does not diminish the handmade aspect of the knife. That said, however, no machine (even our beloved grinders) is ever a replacement for old world craftsmanship.
 
there is a very famous photographer ( she takes many music related photos) that all she does is press a button and her photos sell for millions. someone else sets the lighting,thepose or non pose, they set up the camera on the pod adjust for disired exposure etc... then she comes in presses the camera button a few times, then checks the photos and picks out the keeper. I tell you one thing--he cant call herself a knife maker--marekz
 
Stacey wow that guy must not be married, cuzz my wife helps me pick out handle material sometimes and I call it my knife , thats her way of pertisupating lol My spell check is broken lol
 
Going from a plain bar of flat steel and grinding it yourself into something that looks like a knife, then heat treating it, then putting a handle on it, is knife making in my opinion. You learn about the actual steel, how it works, and how it does not work....in forging even more so. Taking a knife blank that has already been shaped, tapered, holes drilled, heat treated by someone else, then putting a handle on it is maybe a hobby (like model airplane building), but I would not consider it knife making. This because the person in not actually making for themself the part that counts...the knife. But that's just my opinion. I like making knives first and foremost...the handle comes after.
 
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R.C.Reichert said:
Going from a plain bar of flat steel and grinding it yourself into something that looks like a knife, then heat treating it, then putting a handle on it, is knife making in my opinion. You learn about the actual steel, how it works, and how it does not work....in forging even more so. Taking a knife blank that has already been shaped, tapered, holes drilled, heat treated by someone else, then putting a handle on it is maybe a hobby (like model airplane building), but I would not consider it knife making. This because the person in not actually making for themself the part that counts...the knife. But that's just my opinion. I like making knives first and foremost...the handle comes after.
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I figured I would resurrect this old thread. I recently inquired about setting up a table at a custom knife show. I was told that I may not be allowed to sell my knives there because I have them waterjetted out. To be honest it never even occurred to me that it would be an issue. Now I design the knife myself on AutoCAD and send the file to the waterjet company. It would not be practical for a custom knife owner to owner waterjet. I think there is a distinction between personally preferring knives made without a waterjet, versus saying that a waterjet is not a legitimate custom knife. In terms of repeatability a waterjet is not dramatically different than tracing a pattern. I typically have a fair amount of cleanup to do even after the waterjet is done.

It feels a little bit to me like for some if you do not do it the way they do it then you're not doing it right. In the case of the waterjet it is not like you're picking patterns out of a pattern book and saying make me those, but in my case I literally start with a blank file and draw the knife I want. Sometimes I print it out to scale to see what it looks like, sometimes I even cut it out in wood to see it in real life before I send it out to get cut.

I am surprised this is even still a debate, and I suspect that this knife show that I inquired about has a number of makers who are using a waterjet, most likely because they are smart. In fact I know a number of makers are using waterjet because they're using the same waterjet that I am. I also know some of them want to keep it hush-hush. I just think we should come Out of the closet about the waterjet and conced that it is fair game.
 
Would you name the show, please. I would like to know the group involved.

Waterjet cutting of blanks is pretty much the industry standard for any production knives. Unless the show is some sort of Guild show for custom knives only, I can't see the rejection of hand made blades from waterjet cut blanks.

BTW, It would have been better to start a new thread than to resurrect a seven year old one. You can link the old one in the new thread.
 
Wow, this is an old thread, but what's funny is that the debate is still very much the same as it used to be.

Personally, I think that making a distinction between water jet cut blanks of one's own design, and profiling them at one's own shop is kind of silly. IMO, profiling the blank is probably the easiest part of making the thing, but it can also be time consuming, kills belts, bits and blades, and potentially wastes material. Now, I can design a knife, make a template, and cut 100 blanks by hand that are all within a very reasonable tolerance of each other. But why on earth would I waste that much time, effort, tooling and materials, when I can have such a trivial step subbed out to a water jet, and get them all within +/- .003" (or better) of each other?

The question always becomes where to draw the line... What about subbing heat treat? What about purchasing precision ground steel? Or purchasing steel in the first place? hahah

The answer that always seems to end up at the top of the pile, however, is this: Just be honest and transparent about your work. if the blanks are designed in CAD and WJ cut, say that. If some one does the heat treat, give credit. Now obviously not every method and process will be everybody's cup of tea, so to speak, and apparently that's the case with whoever might be in charge of registering tables at the show you inquired of. In this case, being honest may have cost you a table at the show, but personally I'd rather be accused of being too honest than not being so at all.

I also agree with Stacy: If it's some type of Guild show or similar, there may very well be some "sole authorship" type of guidelines, and in that case, I would understand not being eligible, or I would simply change the approach to making that particular table's worth of knives.
 
A profiled blank of your design that you have cut out of stock is not "cheating". I could instruct just about anyone to cut out a rough blank after I traced the pattern on it. I liken it to using pin stock. No I didn't make a rod out of a block of material, but that is more a matter of practicality and cost/time analysis.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
The answer that always seems to end up at the top of the pile, however, is this: Just be honest and transparent about your work. if the blanks are designed in CAD and WJ cut, say that. If some one does the heat treat, give credit. Now obviously not every method and process will be everybody's cup of tea, so to speak, and apparently that's the case with whoever might be in charge of registering tables at the show you inquired of. In this case, being honest may have cost you a table at the show, but personally I'd rather be accused of being too honest than not being so at all.

I also agree with Stacy: If it's some type of Guild show or similar, there may very well be some "sole authorship" type of guidelines, and in that case, I would understand not being eligible, or I would simply change the approach to making that particular table's worth of knives.
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I think that is key, just be honest about your process.

This is a bit of a guild type association and their guideline was stated like this : "which the applicant individually handcrafts by grinding or forging the blade from a steel billet or bar stock."

I just can not help thinking that a number of their members are use some waterjetting services.

I don't want to mention the name because they have not made a determination on my knives yet, and I also don't want to seem to be throwing them under the bus.
 
Well, I guess it has been decided that if you are okay with it then however and whatever you did to make it is okay. Too much dust in the air, able to save, time, gets a better finish, certainly more precise in grinds and shape, easier to copy someone else's work, and helps to make it look like a professional made it all are self serving and why not use one or all? I really do believe this because in fact that's the way it is. To ask makers, or assemblers to evaluate their honesty to themselves and then think they will adjust is a foolish thought. There are a lot of people out there that need the incoming funds to help manage in their lives. Some work with factories, Some have equipment that might be considered to make them a manufacture.
Perhaps the real fact in all of this is that in the end the variety in beauty, and useability goes on forever in what is made. Isn't that a great thing?
For several years as a signature I came up with and have posted "it doesn't matter how it's made or what it's made of, but how good it is when finished."
For me I buy the materials and work them as best I can hoping in one way or another there will be some satisfaction to others and me.
Frank
 
I don't want to throw stones at anyone who uses his freedom to make something and sell it as long as he is truthful. Any thing that I sign now is ground by me. I do not forge Damascus blades. I still buy some blanks and some profiled and ground Damascus blades for my customers who want them and for myself when I see a beautiful pattern. Some times those knives are much more work than the stainless ones I grind from mill finish because I must heat the tangs to soften them a bit before drilling with tungsten carbide drills and re shaping the tangs to please myself but I do not mark them and point out to customers that I did not grind the blade from scratch. I have never had a customer turn down a nice Damascus knife because I did not forge and grind the blade both. My opinion is just be honest about what you create and then you can hold your head up when dealing with knife customers. Here's a knife I made from a blade I purchased already ground because I liked it and it is part of my personal collection of knives. Larry

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There is always a kind of debate about how a knife is made, considered as the attribute that make the value.
I agree with Frank. The handmade knives should be an effective tool and finished very well in every detail; this is to me the hallmark of the fine craftmanship.
Most often the story of the "handmade knife" is told behind a sloppy knife, be it forged or not, to serve as an excuse to justify a load of errors behind an high selling price.
We forge or cut stock with the tools at hand, and i can't see the difference if the cuts are made with a waterjet or an hacksaw, except the time and waste amounts involved; an handmade knife it's much more than this.
A knife made with a forge, files, brace, hacksaw and sandpaper is not inherently superior to one made with modern tools. Maybe more rewarding for the maker ;)
 
Perhaps the "burr" is some have a need to call themselves knife makers but are not sure they can make the mark. Don't stress it.
Frank
 
Did you grind/ sand/ file a bevel on a piece of steel? did you heat treat and sharpen said steel so that it would keep an edge and cut things? Guess what? You are a knife maker.
 
kdogmcg said:
Did you grind/ sand/ file a bevel on a piece of steel? did you heat treat and sharpen said steel so that it would keep an edge and cut things? Guess what? You are a knife maker.
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I do not qualify. I have mine profiled with a water jet and sent out for heat treat.

I am a part time not knife maker, and a business owner (non-related industry).

As I look at knife making as a business model it is a really tough road to profitability, and even harder to a sustained living wage. To suggest that outsourcing those two tasks makes the end product inferior, or makes one an inferior craftsman is just silly. As mentioned before every makes a distinction somewhere, some might say unless you forge you are not a real knife maker. Maybe somebody could say unless you smelt your own steel you are not truly crafting your own product. Better yet maybe unless you mine your own ore.

For the record using the water jet in my case is directly related to outsourcing the heat treat. Because Peters is much more cost effective in a batch over 20 it makes me want to send a good batch in at a time which makes the water jet so appealing. Also in my case I like to use a variety of steels and it is impractical to master heat treating a dozen different steels.

Then on the market side of the equation, I don't believe a large number of the average buyers care how your blade was rough profiled or heat treated (as long as it is done right) so there is not a substantial market value difference. Before was a maker I would not have paid a premium for that, although I might pay a premium for a forged blade.
 
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