Knife Defense for Dummies

[Samurai6]

Why defend yourself with a knife?

Because some criminally insane monster, or monsters, from the swamps of society is trying to kill you, by whatever means, and you, being a peaceful, law abiding citizen who has walked the streets for 30, 40, or 50 years without so much as glimpsing any real violence, are not carrying a gun. You are carrying a…? Correct! You are carrying a knife! Why are you carrying a knife? Because you are a knife nut! You love knives, and you have one with you all the time. And since you have made the personal decision to fight back rather than just accept your fate at the hands of a violent attacker, you may even carry a knife that was designed and built for hard use, with a strong blade and a secure grip, one that would be more of an asset than a liability in close quarter self-defense.

But if you have made the decision to fight back against a violent assault on your person, wouldn't a handgun be a better weapon? Maybe, maybe not. Even professional trainers such as Mas Ayoob will tell you that, within a surprisingly large danger zone, a knife is just as deadly. A knife can also be deployed in a defensive fashion, with virtually no skill required. Merely draw the knife and hold it up to block whatever punches, kicks, or grabs come your way. But, if you can manage to engage an attacker with a handgun, at a range where it wouldn't be safer to just run, or close in and try to control his weapon, say 15 feet or so, and you have the nerves of steel to aim and fire at him while he is shooting at you, and it is legal in your jurisdiction, maybe a handgun would be the best choice. Good luck, Wyatt Earp. People who thoughtlessly spout the platitude, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight" have not given any thought to the tactical challenges and limitations of handgun versus handgun defense. If the bad guy is shooting at me from 25 feet, and I am cornered, OK, I'll take the pistola, but when a bad guy has a gun on you at close range, I wouldn't give five cents for the difference between a handgun and a knife for self defense. If you think a handgun would be that much better, you are suffering from your own set of delusions.

Lastly, a handgun is a weapon, and only a weapon. The chances of one saving my life in a violent confrontation are so low that I would not carry one, even if it were legal for me to do so, except to the shooting range to have some fun.

Why would somebody devote a big part of their lives to learning and practicing bladed combat? Good question. Bladed combat is out of date, waaayyy out of date. Combat these days is conducted by Blackhawks, F-14s, and Tomahawks. Why do people devote their lives to music, to painting, to collecting knives? They like it. I like to think there is an element of wanting to face the blackest challenge they can imagine, and having the intestinal fortitude deal with it to the best of their ability. If somebody faces you with a gun and you are unarmed, you are more or less screwed. But if somebody faces you with a blade, if you have some skill, you have a chance. Why do law enforcement professionals choose their vocations? To help others, or just for the remote chance to shoot somebody some day? It is the same with blade fighters, they just want to extend themselves in a way that has meaning to them. I've been hanging out with a bunch of them for some time. They are good people, the kind of people you would want at your back with a knife. They are not punks who think carrying a knife is going to make them Kung Fu movie stars, just as all knife enthusiasts are not homicidal psychopaths dreaming of vivisecting small children. Get my drift?


[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

[Kumdo]

Nice post, Steve. I'm not sure I agree with your feelings that a knife is as effective as a gun for close quarter self-defense. I'm not dissagreeing, just not sure.

Also, I personally am not convinced about the practicality of using a knife against an armed assailant. I have a good amount of martial arts training and limited knife fighting experience. My experience with unarmed knife defense is fairly extensive however (realistic "free form" defense, as well as pracctical "attack, couter-attack" scenarios). Personally, if I was attacked by a knife-weilding assailant, I would want/need both hands to deal with the situation. My first goal would be to control the weapon, and thus the situation. Holding a knife would essentially forfeit one of my "weapons" (however limited they might be). Again, I am not trained in knife fighting, so this would not neccessarily be the case for someone with experience in this area.

Conversly, like you said, someone without any sort of training would probably benefit from having an edged weapon at their disposal.



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John Gonzalez
Exclusive Dealer
Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works

 

[Don Rearic]

John,

The only problem with controlling a weapon bearing hand/wrist is, you have to use both hands generally. There is sweat and blood out in the real world. Never lose track you are fighting a human and not a knife. I know it is a precarious balance we have to strike, but nothing is certain.

Saying you have any skills or experience with disarming someone armed with a knife and you have nothing is sort of like saying you have experience at catching live grenades and throwing them before they explode.

That is not meant to be insulting, it is just to point out the fact that alot of "Martial Arts" rely on some pretty shaky guesses and assumptions at times. Frozen arms and people that do not spit in your eyes during the fray, kick you in the stones...blah blah blah...

All in all, Steve H. made a very good post.

All in all, Para should lock this Thread and any that appear in this forum and that should be a standard rule here as this is not the place for it. There are three other "Tactical/Defensive/Martial Arts" related forums at BFC with which people can learn, if they do not want to go there, that is fine too.

It seems very en vogue to throw very volatile posts in the General Forum which have the immediate effect of a nailbomb in a sidewalk cafe.

I think it should be closed, this one, even though I agree 100% with Steve in his sentiments.

The trolling has to stop.

 

[Zion Lion]

Well put.

 

[Richard]

Steve, thats probably one of the clearest, most to the point posts I have seen on this topic. Very well written, and thought out. You will get no arguement from me, as I agree with you.



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Richard Todd - Digital knife photography
icq 61363141
My WebSite
Do your site a favor, get quality digital images!!!
New photos added!!!

 

[sing]

I also think discussions of the "defensive" utility of a blade should be in the "tactical forums" to avoid hackle raising that it gets in the general forum.

Still for those, who can't stand the notion of a "defensive" use of an edge tool, you may want to read this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum52/HTML/001187.html

But even this may not convince folks.

sing
AKTI #A000356

 

[glockman99]

Steve,

I gotta say that at least you have balls.

.

I carry a "fighting knife" (either my Cold Steel 5 inch Gunsite, or my 6 inch Tanto), but I would MUCH rather that my Glock 23 in my hand when (if?) the s**t ever hits the fan. (And I have had "real life" TRAINING in the use of BOTH a knife, and my Glocks.).

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Dann Fassnacht
Aberdeen, WA
glockman99@hotmail.com
ICQ# 53675663

 

[tom mayo]

tomahawk? where do you hide it? I spend 98% of my time in my shop......no self defense problem there!!

The rest of the time I wear my running shoes!!!!!!

 

[Samurai6]

Tom,

Do you have extensive training in Nikedo?

 

[Jeff Clark]

A knife-verses-knife duel is not the likeliest self defense scenario I'm worried about. I've practised it considerably for fun, but there are higher priorities for defense. The "multiple thugs" and the "idiot with a club or bottle" rank higher on my knife defense list.

In general I prefer to use a knife as a distraction while I do a knee kick. Then I run like hell. If I can't run there are scenarios that involve disabling one guy and holding a knife to his throat while you get the others to go away. My style involves a knife in my hand and major strikes performed with my feet.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

[jrf]

We often criticize those that repeat the old saying about "not bringing a knife to a gunfight," but I think we have to be careful that we don't fall into the trap of taking the opposite extreme position as well. Each has it's place, but I think there are MANY more situations in which a gun (assuming a willing and competent shooter) reigns supreme.

Overall, I'll have to respectfully agree with Glockman. In the vast majority of situations, I'd prefer a reliable handgun to a knife. I carry a knife on a regular basis because there are places/situations in which I can not (or will not) carry a firearm.

In any case, I certainly agree that a knife can be a formidable weapon at close quarters. JRF.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

[Samurai6]

JRF:

Yes, I don't want to be misconstrued. When I asked whether a handgun was not a better self-defense weapon, I replied with a sincere maybe. In some situations yes, but not categorically.

My point is that, for 99% of the people who carry a knife with an eye toward self-defense, you cannot catagorically argue that those people are stupid and should be carrying a handgun.

With due repects to the good points made by Don, I don't want this to be a discussion of tactics. I just wanted to make the point that a knife can be a tactical advantage under some circumstances, not every one even wants to carry a gun, and students of the bladed arts are not the fools their detractors would paint them as.

 

[Boriqua]

Three Cheers for Steve !!! I am getting just a little tired of the new Politcal Correctness invading even the knife Groups. I was having trouble with it in the rest of my world .... and it took a while to work its magic here but....

Knives SERVE very well as Offensive and defensive Weapons.

Sorry boys and girls who have now found it Passe to see knives as having a defensive potential but the truth is It DOES ... whole wars were fought with them, Countries made and lost. Tell my Relative who was stabbed to death that a knife is a lousy weapon! More than once it has saved my bacon. If I have a gun in my pocket and you have a knife in yours ... and You get to the knife first, Guess what .. someone brought a knife to a gunfight and just maybe won!

There you go ... I carry knives daily and agree that I have cut alot more bagels than people ... but it has been used successfully used as a Defensive tool as well. Thanks Steve for Speaking out.

If any of the newer posters want to see my position on knives check out
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000854.html

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Alex

My Knife Page



[This message has been edited by Boriqua (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

[jrf]

Steve: I agree with your last post completely. I also realize that you were not making a blanket statement. I just wanted to prevent people from falling into the trap of taking the extreme position that a knife is inherently "superior" to a firearm. Each has a role that it does very well, and I would not be willing to state that either is categorically a "better" weapon under all circumstances. My real concern about people who carry any weapon is whether they have the "will" to employ that weapon when or if the times comes that they truly need it.

Boriqua: Yes, whole wars WERE fought with edged weapons, but those days are long gone. (The Bowie knife disappeared as a weapon of choice for close-quarter fighting in this country with the advent of reliable handguns.) Our military and law enforcement officers are issued and trained with firearms for very good reasons. JRF.



[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

[Crayola]

Very well put Steve!

In close range a knife can be very devastating. I am not clear on all of the details but an experiment was set up to test how well a trained person with a knife could do against police officers. Again, I apologize if I get the details wrong, but here goes.

Dan Inosanto was doing some training with some police officers and the "experiment" was kept from the officers he was training with (others were in on it.) So at a lull in the training, Dan covered 10-15 feet and struck at the 3 officers with some kind of marking device simulating a knife. BEFORE THE OFFICERS HAD THEIR GUNS DRAWN Dan had "cut" all three of the officers, and it was later determined that the first two officers were clearly dead with the third, who actually managed to run away, was severely "wounded".

WOW says I!!

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"Come What May..."

 

[cerulean]

Excellent posts, Steve and others.

I think one of the main problems with this issue is that people seem to be debating a statement that hasn't been made. There have been many posts lately that ridicule the idea that a knife is a better weapon than a gun. However, no one has made such a claim! I haven't seen anyone state that a knife is an overall better weapon, and it would be silly to do so. A gun can kill more people in a shorter amount of time at a greater distance. To me, that makes it a better weapon.

People who are interested in self-defense with a knife simply claim that it can work adequately in that role and, in certain instances, a knife may be preferable to a gun, for whatever reason. You can certainly debate parts of that claim, but it's not much fun to create a straw man argument and then destroy it.


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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

In his book "Starship Troopers", Robert Heinlein had a scene where the trainees were learning to fight with knives. After their session, one of them asked why they wasted time with knives when they would be using all sorts of dangerous weapons when they actually went into battle. The sergeant replied that 'There are no dangerous weapons; only dangerous men'.

I think the most important aspect of self-defense is the psychological preparation.

1) Are you aware of your surroundings?
2) Are you willing to hurt someone for attacking you?
3) What equipment do you have: hands & feet, knife, gun?

You've always got yourself, you may have a knife -- not necessarily a Fighting Utility Combat Knife -- and you may not have, or be able to get to, a gun.

A three-inch blade, plastic handle, cheap pocket knife, that you routinely carry and use for humble tasks every day, becomes a reflexive helper when you really need it.

Just don't slice someone up for giving you a dirty look!

 

[Don Rearic]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
With due repects to the good points made by Don, I don't want this to be a discussion of tactics. I just wanted to make the point that a knife can be a tactical advantage under some circumstances, not every one even wants to carry a gun, and students of the bladed arts are not the fools their detractors would paint them as.</font>

Yes, and I was not *hinting* that you were the Troll, because I know you are not. However, if Trolls are made of Iron, this Thread will be a magnet for them to attach themselves to. The result will be flames.

Some people you will never convince...that the Edged Weapon is viable. Hell, you cannot even convince some people that a handgun is viable, they are victims, they have the mindset and attitude of a victim and wish Society to provide for their Safety & Security.

Then there are those that you cannot convince to retire that old, absurd chestnut of, "never bring a kife to a gunfight."

If it offends some folks by what I am about to say, so be it.

If you repeat a mindless Mantra, you yourself, are mindless.

Some random thoughts are...

Police are taught to fire if a person farts or sneezes at 21 feet or less, if they have a knife in their hand. Some departments have expanded that to 30 feet. There is a reason for that, and the reason is not becuse Departments run by Administrative beancounting sonsabitches want to be involved in lawsuits. It is because Officers have been killed.

Leads us to handgun vs. edged weapon.

JRF, is absolutely correct in all of his post until he reaches the end. I am a firm believer in the Maxim, "Self-defense is War in microcosm." However, I am not on a Battlefield, nor am I a Police Officer.

The reason Police think the Handgun is superior is due to the fact that they are generally responding to a call, "Man with a knife..." Someone is giving them the all-important information beforehand that the Citizen will not likely have. The Soldier will know that he is about to be overrun and the chances of Close Contact will grow with that. The Officer responding to a crime or someone's report of a man with a weapon of some sort, "know the deal beforehand..." That is an incredibly powerful piece of information folks. It makes all the difference in the world complete.

As I said, the mechanics the wounding and tactics are very similar in Self-defense as in war and policing, they are different in this respect.

Who mugs the Soldier on the Battlefield folks?

Who mugs the Uniformed Officer? Cops impress me so when they say, "You pull that knife on me, I'll shoot your sorry ass..." DUH, really? No sh*t Sherlock. That would have never even occurred to me really.

They have the absolute luxury in many cases of knowing beforehand what they are about to face. The wonders of modern electronics in the form of Motorola.

So, where does that leave us in this marvelous world of arrogance spewed by "Yaquina Kid" and "OKG" and others who, in their infinite wisdom wish to demonize, ridicule or dismiss?

FBI Stats are consistently, most "gunfight" occur at ranges of 21 feet or less, there is that damned number again, "21."

Of those, the majority are under 10 feet.

Most occur in low light situations.

The only time cops are killed today by an edged weapon is when they do not know what the "deal" is and they are ambushed or someone flakes out on them during a traffic stop or in some fatal funnel like a foyer or stairwell. They simply do not die because of the awareness that has been created, believe it or not, by US in the Filipino Martial Arts Community. Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje Jr. were in Calibre Press' "Surviving Edged Weapons" training tape. *HINT* *HINT*

Muggers, Yoke Artists, multiple punks wishing to stomp you ("Wilding") and rapists do not do these things from across a street, nor do they do it from 20 feet, they do it in your face. Please, before you spew, get a clue. (not JRF or Steve, the trolls and know-nothings).

They invade your space, your personal sphere of defense, when they do that, the knife is every bit the equal of the handgun. The Gunny seeks to move out at least to where he has reactionary distance, at a point where you cannot control his weapon. The Knifer is the opposite, they seek to close.

Distance is the friend of the Gunny, the Enemy of the Knifer.

There are some good people on this Thread and this is not meant towards you, but I really wish some people would think before they post the hogwash they do. When they do that, not only do they make fools of themselves, they impugn the legitimacy of the Edged Weapon and some very serious people who know both knives and firearms intimately.

To the Police Officers that still think the knife is worthless for Self-defense, I would say, than to stay in the good graces of your own philosophy, you should not draw on someone that has a knife at 21 feet, nor at 10. Your superior weapon will carry the day for you. That is what you are betting your life on.

It is politically incorrect to say, but it must be said, things that kill people are often the most effective weapons of defense. Seems like a no brainer, but so often people forget this or in their own arrogance, conveniently ignore it.

I still wish the Thread would be locked down or moved to Practical Tactical.

 

[ptn]

Wow!...over a dozen very sensible posts in a row, about a usually very sensitive topic. It's refreshing to read.

Wish I had something more to contribute than my appreciation.

 

[not2sharp]

Gun or Knife, so what? I find the discussion on this subject somewhat academic.

With either you better remember to get a grip and use your head or you will end up staring up from a puddle of blood. There is no place for macho attitude in the situation you are in. The issues are much simpler than that. You just need to figure out a way to gain initiative while keeping your skin intact.

Fact 1:
If you find your self in a situation where a knife or gun is required then you have already committed a critical mistake, and there are no two ways about it; it will cost you, so relax and pay up. You are not there to right a wrong, set an example, or vindicate the innocent. You are there because you $crewed-up...admit it and work on minimizing the costs.

Fact 2:
If you are forced to use your gun or knife then you loose. Even if you survive the fight you will loose financially, and legally, socially, and possibly physically.

Do everything you can to diffuse the situation. Run away, give them your wallet, take them to the bank, hell take them for a tour of the town. Time works to your advantage - use it.

And, if and when you are finally cornered, then by all means use everything at your disposal to cause as much damage as you possibly can. By this time your only concern should be getting through the next 60 seconds. Legal justification and the consequences are something you can worry about when and if you survive.

Can knives be used for self defense? Yes, absolutely, Just like virtually everything else.

N2S
Perhaps reflecting back on the old neighborhood.