Knife design ; Ethics

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Or, you could not come up with a design on your own, so, you coppied someone elses work.

Intent plays some role in what you are making.

A knife is made up of many parts with many shapes, angles, contours etcetera. Each one of these has been used in the manufacturing of a knife by someone at sometime in the past. So designing a feature in a knife that is original, I believe is rare. How you combine all these features is what gives you originality.
No one can confuse one of Ed Fowlers knives with someother makers.

Ed's advice; "find your own niche". I agree!

To me, the thrill is in making your mind usefull and trying to come up with an "original" design and then building it.

It is hard to "originate a design" when you begin making knives. You are busy trying to figure out what a knife is and how it functions, so producing a knife, at this stage, that looks like a Loveless or Scagel is perfectly acceptable, to me. After you have spent the time developing your skills and aquiring your equipment and you still insist on making a Loveless or the like, then you are just not being very inventive.

To follow up on what Raymond said above, building the same thing more than once is not that much fun. I dread it personally. The first one is a thrill
the second is drudgery.
The challenge for me these days is trying to build two knives that are identical, at the same time then moving on and looking for some new challenge. Everyone has their own approach, this is just mine.

Fred
 
I think its alright to make some similarities of other makers designs, but, if a person makes copies for selling purposes, they shouldn't ridiculously undercut the original makers prices. It can take a long time and a lot of dedication for a maker to get established and for someone to copy just to steal sales of a popular selling knife from established makers, is wrong ((JMO). I guess it falls back to "do unto ours as you would want done unto you". To many ways to put your own spin on your own designs, so why totally copy, and always give credit where credits do.

I'd rather make my own designs that stand out and this will also get you noticed quicker.

Bill
 
Wow , I could'nt imagine a better bunch to get advice from. Of course my goal is to find my own style(piles of scetchbooks wiil attest to that) I also build plastic and wooden models, a cool looking knife oftentimes feels terrible in the hand. I guess I don't have confidence in being able to sell my designs yet. Iwant to make sure I build a usefull knife. Classic styles are still around because they are usefull and beautifull. I still have to seek out customers, maybe once they start seeking me, my designs will be able to come out of the drawer.
 
As Dr. Fred Carter said to A.T. Barr years ago, and A.T. said to me a number of years ago, "You can copy anything in my shop, except my name".
I feel exactly the same way.
That being said, I have also been advised, and agree, that a maker should develope his own style of knife(s) as well. To build a reputation on something of your own pattern or distinctive style as successfull as Bob Terzuola's knife patterns, or Dee Holders "My Knife", or Bob Loveless's drop point hunter, or Tony and Reese Bose's style in making slipjoints sure helps in recognition of a makers knife and enhances the success of that maker's knife making business.
 
So, here's a question for this conversation then. I've been (trying) to make knives for about a year now in my spare time. I found a design available for sale by a maker here that I'd love to have one of, but as I'm supposed to be learning to make knives, and I have so much invested in my tools, I should probably try to make one right? However, it is a very original and recognisible design. I've emailed the maker to ask his permission to reproduce his design (albeit with my own twist) and have heard nothing back.

Is it OK or not?

-d
 
deker said:
= I've emailed the maker to ask his permission to reproduce his design (albeit with my own twist) and have heard nothing back.

Is it OK or not?

-d
Click to expand...

Email the maker a second time.
Then call the maker for a week.
Then send registered Postal mail.

If all three fail, no.

If the piece is highly recognizable (e.g. Blackwood, Emerson, Terzuola), it is not acceptable to copy a design with a minor twist (i.e. dropping the butt, adding a blade hole) as long as it still remains generally recognizable.

If the piece is a generic pattern, or has become so broadly accepted that it is a generic pattern (i.e. Loveless drop point hunter; generic bowie) then yes, it think that it's ok.

On the other hand... it is acceptable to use design elements as inspiration, whether they are aesthetic or functional.

This is my opinion on the ethics of the matter, though. To be frank, the concept of a maker's "design" is so debatable these days, it's a good deal like what constitutes pornography.

YMMV, IANAL, etc.etc.etc.

-j
 
biogon said:
Email the maker a second time.
Then call the maker for a week.
Then send registered Postal mail.

If all three fail, no.
Click to expand...

So I should make a pest of myself to ensure that the maker will say "no you can't reproduce my knife for your own EDC"? That's a little counter-productive to my eventual goal isn't it?

biogon said:
If the piece is highly recognizable (e.g. Blackwood, Emerson, Terzuola), it is not acceptable to copy a design with a minor twist (i.e. dropping the butt, adding a blade hole) as long as it still remains generally recognizable.

If the piece is a generic pattern, or has become so broadly accepted that it is a generic pattern (i.e. Loveless drop point hunter; generic bowie) then yes, it think that it's ok.

On the other hand... it is acceptable to use design elements as inspiration, whether they are aesthetic or functional.
Click to expand...

Ok, where is the line between inspiration and reproduction? If a functional design element is used as inspiration to provide identical function, with a similar aesthetic, is that a copy? How mych of my "mojo" do I have to inject for it to be a properly inspired "tribute piece" or something?

There is also the part of the game where I'm kind of new to this, and it may be a more common design than I'm aware of so I just think it's original since I haven't seen it before. If I'm just ignorant does it make it OK if I go ahead and do it?

biogon said:
This is my opinion on the ethics of the matter, though. To be frank, the concept of a maker's "design" is so debatable these days, it's a good deal like what constitutes pornography.

YMMV, IANAL, etc.etc.etc.
Click to expand...

Heh...don't get me started on a whole intellectual property debate...I work in the IT industry for a living and I'm totally sick of software patents, etc :)

-d
 
Well... it depends.

If you're making a copy of a pattern someone else designed, and you're POSITIVE that NO ONE else will EVER see it, then by all means. You're practicing and honing your skills. From what I'm told, everyone does it. It's easier to start with a known, viable, functioning piece. This way, you can figure out what it is about the ergos, the line, the balance that works.

Reverse engineering occurs in every industry. It's smart practice.

I wouldn't post it on Bladeforums, though. A failure to answer does not constitute permission, eh?

As for the copying thing, all I can say is this:
It's only your reputation on the line.

I know makers who have independently come up with some phenomenal designs, only to scrap them because they felt it was too similar to someone else's work.

I know a lot of makers who actively DO NOT look at other makers' works, so as to not taint their own design.

Does this make logical sense? Not really. Is it safe? Yes.

Full disclosure: I design knives and have had the good fortune to know several very kind knifemakers who have realized them. I have also had "independent parallel evolution" on some ideas, and some other ideas clearly poached from me without a lick of credit.
 
Deker, my .$02.

This is for your own use. This country has a time-honored tradition of the DIY guy being praised for "I made one exactly like it for myself." It wasn't so long ago that such skill was looked at with admiration and not as piracy. Why should that change?

If you're selling it, that's a different story.

People who steal other people's designs for gain are douchebags. The complainant, though, best to be sure he didn't get the danged idea himself from some magazine 10 years ago and forgot.
 
fitzo said:
Deker, my .$02.

This is for your own use. This country has a time-honored tradition of the DIY guy being praised for "I made one exactly like it for myself." It wasn't so long ago that such skill was looked at with admiration and not as piracy. Why should that change?

If you're selling it, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

Yea, I didn't read too carefully the first time.

What fitzo said.

-j
 
What about all of the guys who make KMG clones, do they call the designer for permission??:confused: Is this the same thing? I can't answer about the knives because all of mine suck..:grumpy:
 
rocketmann said:
What about all of the guys who make KMG clones, do they call the designer for permission??:confused: Is this the same thing? I can't answer about the knives because all of mine suck..:grumpy:
Click to expand...

Well, on that one, Rob not only doesn't mind, he actively supports all us folks building our own. He actually went out of his way to answer a couple of questions for me. Excellent customer service on my parts orders as well.

Rob is top-notch.

-d
 
A quick tale of two friends.
One made a beautiful folder that was admired by the other. He asked if he could take it to his table and study it, the first friend said sure go ahead.

About 9 months later out came the same knife by a well known company, proclaiming it was designed by friend #2. There were no obvious changes, as a matter of fact the new knife designed by #2 was identical to the origonal made by friend #1.

This is the kind of behavior that makes enemies, I feel it is about as dishonest as it gets. Friend #1 does not want to push the matter, he has learned the true ethics of #2 and maybe this reality is worth the cost.

Ex friend #2 will carry the burden of his theft for every more. I hope it was worth it to him.
 
thats a sad tale Ed , probably happens more than it should. I sure appreciate your thought on this.(p.s. I hope you weren't one of the friends)
 
When I started making knives I was approached by a few that asked me to copy a knife for a cheaper price. I don't believe that is ethical. I've been inspired by many great knives and makers like Ed Fowler and Bob Lum. They both exhibite unquestionable integrity, and that makes their knives worth even more. Some folks want a Fowler and can't afford Ed's prices. Ed students are a good alternative, particularly when they exhibit Ed's ethics as well as his style, like my friend Bill Burke.

By my personal nature I can't hardly come close to copying someones design without my improvements. That is where my style evolved. I make choices in what I like in style and function then built them. When I first started I found that some of my concepts were not efficient, I had made a mistake. The important part is that you build your ideas and then use them; and then more importantly give the piece an honest evaluation. When you can achieve that personal honesty about your work people will buy your knives to experience the knife but to own a piece of your exercised integrity.

To credit the work of giants that we can build on and evolve in our knives takes NOTHING away from your work, it only validates your effort and integrity.

I find this philosophy to be strong in the world of custom knives and makes it a very rich place to interact with folks with similar ethics. Folks here tend to walk the talk, and to me that is about as good as it gets.

To avoid confusion and to avoid copying a piece I study ancient and ethnic designs to learn about alternative solutions to cutting and defense. It is really a challenge to do something new with the base of information that already exists.

This is kind of like hunting on my ground. If you ask you probably get permission. If you don't ask I run you off....Take Care...Ed
 
"The important part is that you build your ideas and then use them; and then more importantly give the piece an honest evaluation. When you can achieve that personal honesty about your work people will buy your knives to experience the knife but to own a piece of your exercised integrity"


Thanks for that Ed.
I'm going to go grind one right now.
 
Mark: I was not one of the friends.
Here is a story about another great maker. I was the subject of great criticisim about forging theory. I was looking at a showdown in the near future. A friend, good friend, sent me a knife he had forged in such manner that one side was a ladder pattern, the other straight grain. This blade was an absolute statement about my thoughts, proving them beyond a doubt.

My friend gave me the knife, forged 52100 steel with an intergal bolster an absoluty beauty throughout.

I took the blade to the Blade Show and all those who were so critical about my theory could not believe what they were looking at. A precious few understood, the others did not know what to say and the criticism ended, for some time.

That friend posted just before this one, Ed Schemp. Another absolutely ethical maker, friend and good man. I have been working on a double ground blade for several months, seeking understanding about the functional geometry, I had some understanding, but many questions. I called Ed and he
put the entire theme in a readilly understandable explanation that is still gaining clairity three weeks later.

In the cutting competition in Eugene where Ed cut 11 (I believe) pieces of free hanging one inch hemp rope in one cut, another competitor asked him how his blade geometry functioned, Ed readilly shared all his understanding with the man who was competing against him.

This kind of ethic will long outlast those who cheat, withold information or mislead.

Ed Schemp, Thank You My Friend
 
This is some good reading Ed and Ed you guys do not even have to raise your voice to feel the energy in your words.

rltw
spencer
 
Mr. Fowler,

That is exactly the experience that I have had in making holsters, and was the basis for my original response. Alessi, Bulman, Del Fatti and many other great holster makers have willingly shared ideas, techniques and critiques of my work without a second thought of the fact that I compete for the same business. To them it is about teaching a pup the right way, and I respect that imensely. I go out of my way to expand upon there advice and produce gear that while being based on the work of others before me has been tweaked by ideas of my own.

5Shot
 
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