Knife design ; Ethics

[jdm61]

Now my exposure to the knifemakers world has been mostly through the auspices of the ABS. What i have found is that most of the guys wouldn't have a problem with a fellow smith taking inspiration from their work. Oneof the great things about most of the guys in this game and particularly the smiths, is that they approach knifemaking as not only a businessor hobby, but as an educational mission to ensure that the craft is continued. If everyone was so worried about trade secrets, etc, we wouldn't have the various "schools" of knife desing nowadays......the Maryland guys, the Arkansas Mafia and their Texas co-conspirators, Some guys all named Ed and the other crazy cowboys from out west, the Neo-Tribal folks, etc. etc. But I think that almost all makers will agree that if you go beyond producing handmade blades and make money selling someone elses design for production purposes, you have crossed the lineand should be flogged.....or sued for profits and any other damages you can think of, whichever gives the offended party a warm fuzzy feeling.....lol

 

[scottickes]

I am newer at this, but I "VERY MUCH" want to be known for my "OWN" unique style. My dream is to have someone eventually see one of my knives and instantly know that I created it out of my imagination. At the same time, I want it to be functional. Another thing I hope to accomplish, is to have people look at my knives and say, "Wow!". I hope to one day make one of a kinds each and every time. But I also realize that I have a lot to learn, so I am making a few of my patterns over and over and over, so that I can hone my craft and improve on my quality, function and beauty with each successive knife. At this current stage of my knife making development, I do not have the skills to do any other makers' designs justice anyhow!

 

[Al Polkowski]

Hey Guys, I can't find any threads on this. What are thoughts on building other peoples knife designs? what designs are public use ? If I build a loveless drop point will I piss Bob off? I asked Al Polkowski about building a bulldog and he says knifemakers should build their own designs. What about a bowie, is there a usefull style that hasn't been done? probably, but is it my job as a maker to only build completely original knives? Sorry for the rant but it's weighing heavy on me.

Mark,

You've posted this topic on a few forums, I decided to respond to this one, especially since you mentioned my name.

To set the record straight, you didn't e-mail me about building a Bulldog. You said you already built one and were offering it for sale. You asked if I had a problem with that...... I said I did, and I stand by that.

I don't have a problem with other makers being inspired by my work and using some aspects of my knives in their designs. We all do this to some extent.

BUT, to make a copy of anothers work, offer it for sale on your blog, and to advertise it as a Bulldog is a bit over the edge. Perhaps, if you advertised it as a "Reasonable Simulation of a Polkowski Kasper Bulldog with the Makers Permission"............

Bob Kasper and I spent many hours on that knife design. Features of Kasper Bulldog were carried over into other designs done by Bob. These designs are still being made by me and another professional knifemaker. No, they are not patented, copyrighted, or anything else, but all in the knife community know whose designs they are, and who makes them. Coping another's design is not a sincere form of flattery...as the saying goes. Other's designs are other's designs, they are not public use........this is something that is just understood in this business.

Mark, judging from the pictures on your blog, you have knifemaking talent. Perhaps it would be better to channel this talent in designs that say "Mark Pointen" instead of someone else.

With all due respect,

Al P.

www.polkowskiknives.com

 

[Bigjohn]

I agree with all that want to protect the individual quality of a design. I'm 90% done with a customer order of a John Nelson Cooper knife, That I traced from the original this customer owns. I will also send for a stencil that lists him as designer and me the maker,
Ive done the same with Ed Davidson, and some others.
I feel that if I'm going to copy anybodies piece....credit to them for the design comes first.....my name second.

I would never want to be accused of what Al just posted.....thats a shame and as Ed pointed out the burden will be carried ultimately by the perpetrator. As it SHOULD


Bj

 

[Darrel Ralph]

Coping another's design is not a sincere form of flattery...as the saying goes. Others designs are others designs, they are not public use........this is something that is just understood in this business.

Well said Al!

 

[jdm61]

I talked to Bob Terzuola a couple of years ago about this very thing at the NYCS show. He could care less. There are more knife makers coping Bob's ATCF folder than any other custom folder ever made. The people who pioneered these classic paterns can sell as may knives as they could ever make. Do you really think Bob Loveless thinks some part-time maker who makes 100 or so knives a year is cutting in to his business?

Some very well known makers have boldly copied others work. During the time when Jimmy Lile was the king of knife making for his Rambo I & II knives Colin Cox was selling a hollow handled clip point bowie with saw teeth on the spine of the blade. It appeared in photo ads in Blade magazine, Care to hazard a guess on the name of the knife in question? "Fierce Blood"

Yeah.....that wasn't the last time either......i know this from a previous life as an attorney in Tampa..lol

 

[Protactical]

My advise to those who want their own style in anything is to find a practical use and then develop that. This seems to me to be what Ed Fowler does, to take one exapmle. From reading his stuff he seems to have a life in which the knife in intertwined. Luckily it's a somewhat interesting life involving hunting and country life/arts. It might not be too interesting if it consisted of cutting up up fish heads, only. If you are doing something real with knives then gaining insights and making improvements flows naturally. I'm not suggesting this is a short path, but at least one can't easily end up stuck on the starting line.

It's tougher for those who's knife life is a basement grinder, and an internet connection. Who trafic in knives that whether practical or not are largely sold on the basis of some uniqueness of shape. As objects of beauty. Developing a style out of the ether is a difficult design task. Some people will never establish a direction. One method is to study other arts. They might be knives from other cultures if you can find any that haven't been used, but they could be other objects that have good style built into them. Find anything, cars, trains, pottery, and try to figure out what might translate into a knife, and if it did would stir something in the person you make your work for.

 

[dialex]

I have a few creations that were inspired from other designs as well (like Fred Perrin's La Griffe, or Bram Frank's Gunting). It was merely my way to pay a humble hommage to them, rather than an attempt to copy their work. In time I developed a great friendship with the abovementioned knifemakers

 

[Th232]

I have a few creations that were inspired from other designs as well (like Fred Perrin's La Griffe, or Bram Frank's Gunting). It was merely my way to pay a humble hommage to them, rather than an attempt to copy their work. In time I developed a great friendship with the abovementioned knifemakers

For anyone who hasn't seen them, look here, they're great!

I've got a question though. With design elements, rather than a full design, where does one draw the line? Evidently, we've got stuff which should be fine (ie a Wharncliffe blade), then you've got stuff which is a trademark (ie the Spyderhole). But there are also things like Perrin's index finger hole, which is to my knowledge not patented, trademarked, &c, but is almost uniquely Perrin's. Even though it's not legally Fred's, I would probably ask him permission, if I was going to have it made (for myself or someone else), or submitting it to a company. What would you do?

 

[fitzo]

...... But there are also things like Perrin's index finger hole, which is to my knowledge not patented, trademarked, &c, but is almost uniquely Perrin's. Even though it's not legally Fred's, I would probably ask him permission, if I was going to have it made (for myself or someone else), or submitting it to a company.

Does anyone have any idea of approximately when Perrin first debuted his knives that incorporate the fingerhole? Or, for that matter, when he started making knives?

Thank you.

 

[apsilon]

This is probably going to offend some (and probably amuse others) but here's my take on the topic. I wouldn't call myself a maker yet as I'm just getting started. I've collected knives for a couple of decades but not once have I bought a knife because it was made by a particular person, I've only ever bought things that visually or functionally appealed to me.

With the exception of the Loveless name I've never heard of the makers mentioned in this thread. That shouldn't be too much of a surprise. I'm on the other side of the world to most of you and I don't buy knife or hunting or any other magazines where these people may get a mention so how am I supposed to know them or "their designs"?

A knife, when it comes down to it, is generally a pointy chunk of steel with an edge and a blunt bit to hold on to. That's what I plan on making. So if I happen to make a shape that resembles the shape that someone else has made somewhere in the world should that really surprise anyone? Is anyone here not follwing that basic criteria and therefore copying someone else's idea of using a sharp thing as a tool?

That said there are a few that clearly have a unique look but they're the exception not the rule. Most knives look very similar, especially to Average Joe on the street. I do also agree that you shouldn't go out of your way to use a knife someone else had made as a template for one of your own regardless of it being "their" design or not but you've got to accept the fact that somewhere someone is going to have a similar if not the same idea as you without having any idea of who you are or the work you do.

Now I'm not looking to make a living from making knives, in fact I plan on making them for myself (no doubt I'll sell a couple if only to make room for more) just like all those I've collected for myself so maybe I'm not as sensitive as those that have put a lot of effort in developing their "style". Ayway those are my initial thoughts on the subject. Hopefully they provide another point of view.

 

[J.Marsillo]

I think its alright to make some similarities of other makers designs, but, if a person makes copies for selling purposes, they shouldn't ridiculously undercut the original makers prices. It can take a long time and a lot of dedication for a maker to get established and for someone to copy just to steal sales of a popular selling knife from established makers, is wrong ((JMO). I guess it falls back to "do unto ours as you would want done unto you". To many ways to put your own spin on your own designs, so why totally copy, and always give credit where credits do.

I'd rather make my own designs that stand out and this will also get you noticed quicker.

Bill

:thumbup: Well said Bill.

Mark: I was not one of the friends.
Here is a story about another great maker. I was the subject of great criticisim about forging theory. I was looking at a showdown in the near future. A friend, good friend, sent me a knife he had forged in such manner that one side was a ladder pattern, the other straight grain. This blade was an absolute statement about my thoughts, proving them beyond a doubt.

My friend gave me the knife, forged 52100 steel with an intergal bolster an absoluty beauty throughout.

I took the blade to the Blade Show and all those who were so critical about my theory could not believe what they were looking at. A precious few understood, the others did not know what to say and the criticism ended, for some time.

That friend posted just before this one, Ed Schemp. Another absolutely ethical maker, friend and good man. I have been working on a double ground blade for several months, seeking understanding about the functional geometry, I had some understanding, but many questions. I called Ed and he
put the entire theme in a readilly understandable explanation that is still gaining clairity three weeks later.

In the cutting competition in Eugene where Ed cut 11 (I believe) pieces of free hanging one inch hemp rope in one cut, another competitor asked him how his blade geometry functioned, Ed readilly shared all his understanding with the man who was competing against him.

This kind of ethic will long outlast those who cheat, withold information or mislead.

Ed Schemp, Thank You My Friend

It's makers like this that really inspire me.

Inspiration is what got me into making knives,I cant help but be awestruck by the creations I have seen on this forum alone.It's not just the blades but the generous attitudes of custom knife makers in general.Take our own IG...(with a grain of salt he he) "come on over and play in the smithy" he says. With attitudes like that there will be no dying art's anymore :thumbup:
While I lack the skills to copy anyones designs to a "T" I am all for trying to find my own niche,that is how to get noticed indeed.The cover bands playing in the local bars all make music but its the ones who are creative and original that get famous.