knife destruction tests

[marcinek]

you got to be kidding

I dont see how he is. How is Crucible going to come up with a "industry standard destruction test for cutlery."? That doesn't make sense, they only make the material that is used to make one part of a knife.

That doesn't determine the lock strength, the strength of the pivot, etc etc etc.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Non commmercial travel...private planes and boats...and cars.






Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

And again if you can end up with a knife, it means you were able to bring one with you and subsequently could've brought more.

I'm sorry, but I just fail to see how anyone could end up in a survival situation with just a fixed blade and it not be their fault that they don't have more.

 

[stabman]

I like use tests.
If people make videos showing use of a knife I intend to buy, being used for things I want to use it for, then that can tell me something.
If a number of people experience the knife breaking while performing the tasks I want to use it for, then I would not buy that knife.

For testing locks, if there was some independent lab that was doing it with a hydraulic press like that used in Benchmade's tests, that could be useful data when selecting a lock.
Same machine applying force in a controlled manner the same distance from the pivot, by an organization not affiliated with any manufacturer.
Somehow, I doubt that is ever going to happen though...unless I win a large lottery, because it would give me something to do.

 

[Ratman79]

Destruction tests can be useful to demonstrate extremes of tolerance or to show certain characteristics of heat treatment for example.

Sometimes they can be used as a way to differentiate a particular maker's steel from everybody elses.

Take two examples of 3v and 1095. Both of these steels can vary quite a bit as far as HT, hardness, toughness, edge holding etc. are concerned. A destruction test can be a maker's way of saying, "...see? this is how *my* 3V is different than the rest out there. It can do this, this and that..."

 

[Gaston444]

Well that changes things a tiny bit, but not much.
A knife is still just a cutting tool, if I need to pry I'll use a pry bar, and if I need to chop or split I'll use a hatchet.
People need to stop worrying about how far they can get with the wrong tool for the job.

They always talk about " in a survival situation this and in a survival situation that " but if they can get themselves Into a survival situation with a fixed blade there's no reason other than stupidly that they wouldn't have a hatchet and other proper tools with them.
It's like setting out to fix a car with nothing more than a hammer and duct tape.

There are other ways of getting around than cars you know... Bicycles or motorbikes for instance, and those do breakdown as well...

Second, you cannot EDC any kind of hatchet without serious preparations (meaning typically a sizeable backpack), while I find carrying a 10" fixed blade IWB quite comfortable...

I also find the weight, thickness and especially one-side balance of a hatchet makes it a quite absurd item to carry without at least four wheels, for nothing more than a 20-30% gain in chopping performance (much less vs my 11" blade), with somewhat less safety from bounces, and non-existent slicing abilities...

I do agree destruction tests on fixed blades are the type of thing that encourages the current ridiculous standard of a 40 degree inclusive wedge (20 per side, which Busse fans often up to 60 degrees inclusive, marvelling at how tough the steel then becomes...), something which is almost completely devoid of any real cutting ability... With a 40 degree inclusive wedge, even small tasks like cutting a small rope require a huge effort holding the rope firmly and a lot of energetic sawing: Pathetic... Compare that to what even 10 fewer degrees inclusive can do (15 per side): No sawing and a cut in one slicing stroke, and still a bit too much effort for my tastes... And yet 30 degrees inclusive will hold very well while chopping, not to mention relieve some hand shock...

One useful fixed blade "destruction test I really approve of is smashing bricks into pieces with the spine (it is a youtuber called Mayor Fuglycool that I first saw using that test, to give credit where its due): This really weeds out the Chinese made crap that is hard and holds an edge extremely well, but is not properly tempered and will break into pieces from hitting bricks with the spine, sometimes in multiple pieces...: A useful test to weed out short cuts that you could not see otherwise... A lot of the cheap Chinese stuff fails this test...

For folders or small knives, one thing that is constantly overlooked is just how weak a cutting tool a knife is...: There is no way those 4" blade "bushcraft" blades would be considered serious outdoor blades if this was understood... People talk all the time about "fine" cutting tasks, as if the whole knife should be designed around some mythical "delicate work" that has hardly anything to do with the outdoors (outside of field dressing)...

Even so called "fine" work almost always requires some chopping action to help separate the material... People don't seem to realize that even whittling tent pegs requires a lot of effort compared to just chopping points on pegs at an angle... And making those pegs require separating the branch into segments: More chopping... In fact I can't think of many outdoor cutting tasks where a bit of momentum would not help lower the effort and energy required...

Most folders have pins that are too small to handle any real cutting, and their weight is mostly in the handle, so even a hugely heavy folder will tend to hold up poorly, because it has the weight and power to damage its own mechanism...: The 11 ounce Al Mar SERE 3003a here suffered a deformed lockbar pin, changing the "sit" of the blade, from very light chopping...: Note the supposedly super-fragile zero edge (8 degrees per side at most) in "lowly" Aus-6 (a 440A equivalent at best) suffered almost NO damage, and yet the whole knife's structure collapsed under the strain...:

As to having recourse to batoning to try to give small knives that appearance of real cutting power, I do consider that a destructive test...

Batoning is nothing more than a fad from people who do not examine the damage to their edges properly (or who tolerate such thick edges even an axe would slice just as well)... Batoning concentrates the impact effort on the weakest part of the blade, the edge (which chopping typically does not do, because the speed carries the edge past the initial contact point, and so spreads the effort higher on the blade, away from the edge)... From what I have seen, and that was quite enough, Batoning a tall blade on edges close to 15 degrees per side will inevitably cause tiny "micro-folds" that will at least dull the knife faster, and otherwise will increase the amount of metal needing to be removed to fix them, at least compared to normal edge wear...

Not to mention that vibration of a metal object that is "trapped" and not free to vibrate will eventually cause metal fatigue from vibrations, which is why airplane parts have to be removed on a schedule... If you look at all the blade failures recorded everywhere, I think about 95% are due to batoning alone, and still people think it smart to roll the dice in the middle of nowhere... Good thing the car is usually ten feet away...

Gaston

 

[Lycosa]

Over the top and a total disrespect for the knife. imo.
rolf

 

[Gossman Knives]

I agree with cobalt. The maker/manufacturer should do it so the consumer doesn't have too. I do it all the time. Sometimes I post results, sometimes I don't. It gives the maker peace of mind that what he is making is done right.
Scott

 

[craytab]

There are other ways of getting around than cars you know... Bicycles or motorbikes for instance, and those do breakdown as well...

Second, you cannot EDC any kind of hatchet without serious preparations (meaning typically a sizeable backpack), while I find carrying a 10" fixed blade IWB quite comfortable...

I also find the weight, thickness and especially one-side balance of a hatchet makes it a quite absurd item to carry without at least four wheels, for nothing more than a 20-30% gain in chopping performance (much less vs my 11" blade), with somewhat less safety from bounces, and non-existent slicing abilities...

I do agree destruction tests on fixed blades are the type of thing that encourages the current ridiculous standard of a 40 degree inclusive wedge (20 per side, which Busse fans often up to 60 degrees inclusive, marvelling at how tough the steel then becomes...), something which is almost completely devoid of any real cutting ability... With a 40 degree inclusive wedge, even small tasks like cutting a small rope require a huge effort holding the rope firmly and a lot of energetic sawing: Pathetic... Compare that to what even 10 fewer degrees inclusive can do (15 per side): No sawing and a cut in one slicing stroke, and still a bit too much effort for my tastes... And yet 30 degrees inclusive will hold very well while chopping, not to mention relieve some hand shock...

One useful fixed blade "destruction test I really approve of is smashing bricks into pieces with the spine (it is a youtuber called Mayor Fuglycool that I first saw using that test, to give credit where its due): This really weeds out the Chinese made crap that is hard and holds an edge extremely well, but is not properly tempered and will break into pieces from hitting bricks with the spine, sometimes in multiple pieces...: A useful test to weed out short cuts that you could not see otherwise... A lot of the cheap Chinese stuff fails this test...

For folders or small knives, one thing that is constantly overlooked is just how weak a cutting tool a knife is...: There is no way those 4" blade "bushcraft" blades would be considered serious outdoor blades if this was understood... People talk all the time about "fine" cutting tasks, as if the whole knife should be designed around some mythical "delicate work" that has hardly anything to do with the outdoors (outside of field dressing)...

Even so called "fine" work almost always requires some chopping action to help separate the material... People don't seem to realize that even whittling tent pegs requires a lot of effort compared to just chopping points on pegs at an angle... And making those pegs require separating the branch into segments: More chopping... In fact I can't think of many outdoor cutting tasks where a bit of momentum would not help lower the effort and energy required...

Most folders have pins that are too small to handle any real cutting, and their weight is mostly in the handle, so even a hugely heavy folder will tend to hold up poorly, because it has the weight and power to damage its own mechanism...: The 11 ounce Al Mar SERE 3003a here suffered a deformed lockbar pin, changing the "sit" of the blade, from very light chopping...: Note the supposedly super-fragile zero edge (8 degrees per side at most) in "lowly" Aus-6 (a 440A equivalent at best) suffered almost NO damage, and yet the whole knife's structure collapsed under the strain...:

As to having recourse to batoning to try to give small knives that appearance of real cutting power, I do consider that a destructive test...

Batoning is nothing more than a fad from people who do not examine the damage to their edges properly (or who tolerate such thick edges even an axe would slice just as well)... Batoning concentrates the impact effort on the weakest part of the blade, the edge (which chopping typically does not do, because the speed carries the edge past the initial contact point, and so spreads the effort higher on the blade, away from the edge)... From what I have seen, and that was quite enough, Batoning a tall blade on edges close to 15 degrees per side will inevitably cause tiny "micro-folds" that will at least dull the knife faster, and otherwise will increase the amount of metal needing to be removed to fix them, at least compared to normal edge wear...

Not to mention that vibration of a metal object that is "trapped" and not free to vibrate will eventually cause metal fatigue from vibrations, which is why airplane parts have to be removed on a schedule... If you look at all the blade failures recorded everywhere, I think about 95% are due to batoning alone, and still people think it smart to roll the dice in the middle of nowhere... Good thing the car is usually ten feet away...

Gaston

Sorry you broke that 30 year old classic folding knife unnecessarily chopping. Also, the edges on my knives are just fine after I baton. Don't know what you are doing but I don't share your experience.

 

[Harry Stone]

I wonder why the tests weren't more demanding. The knives should have been tested for their resistance to belt grinders and cutting torches.

 

[upnorth]

I don't. A knife destruction test can show flaws in design and heat treat. But the knife maker should be the one doing it not us. Unfortunately most don't. For example look at Cold Steels trailmaster, recon scout line. They have square transitions, and hard use testing proved their failure point. I hope CS fixed the issue. Another example take two 1095 knives like RTAK's. One made by ESEE, one made by Livesay and one made by Ontario. They will all cut just fine, which will not tell you anything of the HT. A destruction test if done properly will tell you which is likely to have had the best HT and it will likely not have ever been the Ontario. Problem with destruction tests and why many on here are against them is that they get butt hurt when their favorites knives or brands start failing easily. So they make comments like "proves nothing", "what does it prove", "why would you do this when it is not a knife function". "tester is an idiot". I worked in aerospace for a bit and destruction testing of parts was in every industry. No Engineer would ever agree with not having destructive testing. You car is meant for driving, not hitting walls. Why do car companies drive cars into walls, barriers, etc. The answer is obvious. Destructive testing tells you a lot about what went into making the product.

I have been to, and still explore some very isolated locations at times. I don't want to, or simply forget to bring along some (extra) tools. I actually felt a little more secure with the knowledge that the knife etc. that I brought along with me can withstand some extreme use if need be. Weight and bulk can be a factor for me and I like to know that my primary wood processing tool of choice is tough and adaptable.

 

[Cobalt]

I have been to, and still explore some very isolated locations at times. I don't want to, or simply forget to bring along some (extra) tools. I actually felt a little more secure with the knowledge that the knife etc. that I brought along with me can withstand some extreme use if need be. Weight and bulk can be a factor for me and I like to know that my primary wood processing tool of choice is tough and adaptable.

Yup, and the only way to know if a knife can take it is with properly done destruction testing. Slow ramping up the damage to see what the limits are. I am talking fixed blades here that are used for bushcraft or camping roles. A knife maker, Scott Gossman, agrees. And Honestly, I would not even consider buying a knife from a knife maker that did not agree with it. Thank god that most posting against it don't make knives. I would rather own a feather duster.

 

[Superdave1]

And again if you can end up with a knife, it means you were able to bring one with you and subsequently could've brought more.

I'm sorry, but I just fail to see how anyone could end up in a survival situation with just a fixed blade and it not be their fault that they don't have more.

When do you stop packing?
Should I tow a spare car just in case my car breaks down?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[timberweasel]

I agree with cobalt. The maker/manufacturer should do it so the consumer doesn't have too. I do it all the time. Sometimes I post results, sometimes I don't. It gives the maker peace of mind that what he is making is done right.
Scott

But when you test your knives, what are you looking for? Would it not depend on the intended purpose of the knife you're trying to create? If I bought a knife from you and decide to use it outside its intended design purpose, and it breaks, I don't think that I have a legitimate warranty grievance.

-Brett

 

[Cobalt]

Buyer: I am looking for a car that drives.
Seller: We have those.
Buyer: So what brands
Seller: well we have Yugo's for $5k and we have Toyota's for $20k.
Buyer: what's the difference
Seller: The toyota is a much stronger and safer vehicle and more reliable as well. So if you get into a crash it will do better.
Buyer: I don't intend to crash, that is not the purpose of a car.
Seller: True, but if you do, you will do better in the toyota.
Buyer: No, I think just one that drives is enough for me. I don't expect to take it beyond it's limits.
Seller: Well then, the Yugo is for you.
Buyer: (I can't believe I almost got tricked into paying more for a car that drives)

 

[timberweasel]

Buyer: I am looking for a car that drives.
Seller: We have those.
Buyer: So what brands
Seller: well we have Yugo's for $5k and we have Toyota's for $20k.
Buyer: what's the difference
Seller: The toyota is a much stronger and safer vehicle and more reliable as well. So if you get into a crash it will do better.
Buyer: I don't intend to crash, that is not the purpose of a car.
Seller: True, but if you do, you will do better in the toyota.
Buyer: No, I think just one that drives is enough for me. I don't expect to take it beyond it's limits.
Seller: Well then, the Yugo is for you.
Buyer: (I can't believe I almost got tricked into paying more for a car that drives)

We're talking knives, not automobiles. You can draw parallels ad absurdum if you want, though.

More on point: if I just want a decent fillet knife and allow myself to be talked into buying a cheese knife or garden trowel instead, then I am an idiot.

 

[TickTock]

I always found them entertaining and informative, even if they weren't really telling the info that most of us use knives for.

 

[Gossman Knives]

But when you test your knives, what are you looking for? Would it not depend on the intended purpose of the knife you're trying to create? If I bought a knife from you and decide to use it outside its intended design purpose, and it breaks, I don't think that I have a legitimate warranty grievance.

-Brett

I'm looking for strength/toughness, edge stability, flexibility and edge holding. I don't always test until it breaks. Sometimes I have. For example flex testing of A2 in a vise. Flexed 45 degrees 4 times and it went back to true each time. I pushed it further the fifth time and snapped the blade. Testing impact resistance of S7. I shot the blade with a 41 mag. handgun at 15 yds. You can see that blade in my forum. I test edge stability using a 3 pound hammer batoning into 1/8" thick steel and hammering the point first through the steel. Every steel behaves differently so the tests I do are done according to what the steel would be capable of.
Scott

 

[timberweasel]

I'm looking for strength/toughness, edge stability, flexibility and edge holding. I don't always test until it breaks. Sometimes I have. For example flex testing of A2 in a vise. Flexed 45 degrees 4 times and it went back to true each time. I pushed it further the fifth time and snapped the blade. Testing impact resistance of S7. I shot the blade with a 41 mag. handgun at 15 yds. You can see that blade in my forum. I test edge stability using a 3 pound hammer batoning into 1/8" thick steel and hammering the point first through the steel. Every steel behaves differently so the tests I do are done according to what the steel would be capable of.
Scott

I appreciate your time, Scott. Thank you for the response.

-Brett

 

[Gossman Knives]

No problem. I'm no expert but I do my research. Thanks
Scott

 

[rustyrazor]

the biggest problem I find with destructive testing is that it's mostly not relative or repeatable... if each knife isn't tested in a "scientific" way, then the results are almost useless when compared to one another. I love watching these videos as well, but mostly for pure entertainment as they don't tell an amazing amount about the knife itself or how it will work, just that it will take some random number of beats with a hammer with a random swing by a random angle. well great, now how does it work as a knife? Every decent knife will hold up to ANY amount of sensible use, and will fail eventually, but if it doesn't work as intended then who cares if it can cut an ammo can in half by batonning?