"Knife Flipping"--Article by Allen Elishewitz

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knifenerd

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I wonder how many have seen the new Knives Illustrated (June 2003) article by Allen Elishewitz. It's a 2 page piece urging extreme caution in terms of the practice of "flicking" open a knife. As a well-respected maker, Allen details the mechanical stresses and potential damage that can occur to a folder subjected to this type of abuse.

Worthwhile reading for all.;)
 
I haven't seen the article.

I'm sure Mr. Elishewitz knows what he is talking about, and it is obvious that the forces and stresses are higher with flicking than with using the thumb stud.

Nevertheless, my personal experience has convinced me that, with my few folding knives, flicking damage has not been an issue. I have flicked open my "cheap" Cold Steel knives countless times, because the Cold Steel thumb stud design doesn't work well for me. They still lock up as solidly as ever, and show absolutely no signs of damage. I would have to imagine that higher end knives, such as those made by Mr Elishewitz, are made yet more durably, out of better materials, and with more precise mechanical tolerances. Therefore, I think they would be even less susceptible to harm from flicking.

Perhaps if one was consistently trying to flick as hard as possible, this would eventually cause a problem. But, as far as flicking just hard enough to open the knife, I find it hard to believe thhat this is a real issue.

Is there anyone here who can attest to having damaged his/her folder from flicking? I'd be curious to hear the details of real-life experiences.

--Mike
 
I have been practicing and refining the techniques with my Spydercos. No problems here. I am going to apply the techniques with my other folders and see how they will work out. I may just get my hands on some more Cold Steel cheapies to see how well they stand up. They claim to have the toughest folders for lock strength from what they demo on their More Proof DVDS. In comparison to using their balisong and folders for throwing knives, flicking open a knife hard should be a cakewalk. I would like to find out just what kind of damage it really does to a folder with the various flicking techniques since it might be a good indicator of how well a knife is put together. Guess I will be using the BFC search engine next.
 
I have read the article.

Just because you don't actually see or notice damage to your knife, doesn't mean it isn't being done. EVERY time you flip your knife, your are putting stress on the stop pin (I think that's what it's called). This stress, over time, can cause damage and even cracks that can lead to failure of that particular part. You probaly won't notice it until it breaks. Next time your at the store, stop by the mags and read the article. :)
 
If you use hardend parts and good design there should not be a problem that cannot be addressed. Just about all of my designs are built with flippers or springs. Buy good knives then flip away!
 
...and speaking of Benchmades... I flip my Pardue 721 open pulling back on the Axis lock, its fast (and fun) If a $170 retail knife can't handle it, something is wrong. We'll see....
 
I'm not "preaching" here, guys, but I think that everyone has to be aware of the stresses that a folder will endure when subjected to repeated, extreme flicking. You do not have to have a degree in mechanical engineering to have an appreciation of the trauma that will result to the stop pin and pivot area.

That said--I do not think that flicking, done on a "here and there" basis will harm a well-constructed folder. Certainly, folders by makers like Darrel Ralph are among the most robust-made out there and should be able to withstand a maximum of knife-abuse.

Nevertheless, Allen's opinions on the topic should, IMHO, be carefully considered.
 
I read the article and I'm a fan of A.E. and like his designs. I have mixed feelings about the article.

Over-all I think the article read like the second part of an * (asterisk) at the bottom of a page in a knife owner's manual. It was the sort of over-protective thing that MOST companies do now-a-days that says, "This product was not intended for...", even though it was. It sounded like a disclaimer that could be, reasonably, ignored because they would be hard-pressed to prove it, you probably voided the warranty in another way anyway and the knife can probably take it and they're just covering their asses.

The article also had the feeling of someone who had a "pet peeve" to vent and just cringed at the idea like I cringe at the idea of someone using a Colt Single Action as a hunting sidearm (as if it were only a tool!)

ON THE OTHER HAND, A.E. did write something that I've been thinking about ever since. (I paraphrase) He said something to the effect of how he didn't do it himself anymore because he didn't find it neccessary. It was a simple statement but one that resounded with me. Outside of my super-fast-quick-to-action defensive knife I honestly don't feel the NEED to flick my knives. (Outside of the Spydie drop but I'm not counting that.)

Also, he's right in another way. The habit probably DOES put extra, unneccessary stress on the pivot and stop pin of the knife. As many knives as most of us own we would probably not flick a single knife enough for it to be a problem. But what if we did? Are the knives for our use only or do you plan on passing that Sebenza down to your grandson or daughter? (Personally, I don't plan on procreating so I just flick away.)

Conclusion? None.
It's worth-while reading but HIGHLY debatable depending on your priorities and point of view.

I flick some. I don't feel it neccessary to flick them all.
But I WILL remember what he wrote.
 
... I know Darrell makes good knives and if he says it is OK, then it must be. It is awesome to have a maker stand behind his knives like that. Mr. Ralph... does this include your production designs, too?

So does this mean that Mr. Ralph is the only one to endorse the technique for repeated use? I know Strider makes folders. So does Emerson. Do they stand up to the same techniques? Can anybody offer feedback on this?

I know there was some contention about Sebenzas not being able to stand up to such techniques for long. I think the general consensus was that it was not good for most folders and it was very hard on them. I would like to know as these techniques may or may not be viable dependent on the type of knives being made now. Possibly some of the locking mechanisms today may not even facilitate easy flciking, anyways.
 
I really dont know anything about other knives at all.
The Cuda MAXX factory knife is MADE TO FLIP.
The others were not designed the same way.
Flipping is all in the design and hardware used.
 
I don't think Emerson would have a problem with flicking. I am would think that using the wave puts similiar, if not greater stresses on the pivot, lock, and stop pin.
 
Darrel actually endorsing flipping?!?!?:eek: That's all he does with his knives! Try talking to him on the phone sometime. You'll here a crack, crack, crack on the line.....you ask, "is there a problem with the phone?"....and Darrel gives his evil laugh and says "nooooo, that's a Maxx or an AfterMath or an auto!"

It's been my experience that you find out quickly what knives can take flipping or flicking. I have come across a few that can't take it. As Darrel said, it comes down to design and manufacture. At the same time, that's not saying that if a knife can't stand up to flicking that is a bad knife, it just wasn't designed to do that.
 
Slightly ironic considering an Elishewitz presentation auto easily becomes an assisted opener with a little flip of the wrist...hehe...;)
 
Originally posted by Darrel Ralph
I really dont know anything about other knives at all.
The Cuda MAXX factory knife is MADE TO FLIP.
Click to expand...

Damn and I just got rid of mine!:)
 
Evolute :

Is there anyone here who can attest to having damaged his/her folder from flicking? I'd be curious to hear the details of real-life experiences.
Click to expand...

There have been instances described on the forums before, the good doctor (WW) commented that he had a new custom folder (a Carson I think) damaged in a very short period of time when it was flipped by someone else, and many makers do come out very strongly against it, Reeve for example. Other like Ralph, (and Mayo I think), don't have a problem. So in short, it doesn't have to be an issue.

The only argument against this would be if the folders made by such makers (Ralph etc.) are inferior in some way because of the fact they can take such flipping, they are harder to lock/unlock, not as smooth on the opening, etc. . I have not seen a lot of complaints in this regard, and it seems to me to be an excuse for inferior design / materials.

-Cliff
 
I always flip out over this topic ;).

If flicking is such an issue with some makers, then why don't they use the same materials that makers of autos use ? An auto by definition is a folder that flicks its self open.

Is it that simple or am I missing something?
 
Allen points out that an auto frequently does not put as much stress on the knife than does frequent, vigorous flicking. The auto may also be built to handle the stresses that a manual may not be able to deal with over the long term.

As an aside--how many of you go to knife shows?? Do you see the numerous signs on the tables of well-known, top, reputable makers which read: PLEASE DO NOT FLICK OPEN KNIVES. Are these makers overly timid and not confident in the quality of their products? I think not. I think they are extrememly aware of what constitutes "knife abuse".
 
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