"Knife Flipping"--Article by Allen Elishewitz

*Puts on Nomex suit* Sir... I am referring to your Smith & Wesson H.R.T. folder. It is the one with the blade that has the Magnesium handle, quillon flippers, and wee-hawk type blade. I would have liked to have seen it in a tip up carry although I would be curious if flipping would hurt it much?

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph
I really dont know anything about other knives at all.
The Cuda MAXX factory knife is MADE TO FLIP.
The others were not designed the same way.
Flipping is all in the design and hardware used.
Click to expand...
 
I agree that flicking open knives may produce more stress on the knife than conventional opening methods. However, part of the pleasure of owning knives is flicking them open. I remember growing up someone warned me that if I did a certain thing I would go blind but it did not stop me. Sometimes in life, the pleasure derived is worth the risks we take.:D
 
Okay,

Heads up boys and girls and you knife makers too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Allen has come out with that 2 pager partly because of my problem with a custom titanium folder I purchased and others who have probably had this occur to them as well over the years.

BTW--MOD also has a disclaimer on "flipping" damage.

I have had the Elish titanium linerlock for 12 years. I have developed a technique unique to myself and my students called the "Brownie Pop". It slams the knife blade open with extreme force, not just flipping them, but with almost violent force. It is a positive technique thats faster than anything anyone else has developed to date in any of my classes.

Here's what happened.
After 8 years of "Brownie Popping" that knife constantly I had a three day class in LR, ARK. with Jimmy Keating.
We were practicing slashes to the midsection of the dummies with our carry knives to determine what blade styes, grinds, lengths did the most damage.

The Eilsh came out, "popped" open and as I slashed the dummy the lock released under the heavy slashing cut. I was wearing frisk gloves and was not injured but I was quite disturbed that the lock released to say the least.

In looking at the knife I saw that if I put the edge against something hard with force applied, the liner was released as the blade moved rearward slightly.

I thought it was the stop pin allowing this to happen. Put that knife away for the rest of the Riddle South training event and carried another. I drove to LR so I could take my knives unencumbered by FAA regs, searches, etc.

When I got home I called Allen and he said send the knife to him. In two weeks I got the knife back with a letter of what was determined wrong and what was done to correct the issue at hand. The letter asked me to send some money for the return shipping he incurred on this matter. I thought that was real nice to send it and hope I was honorable enough to send the funds later.

Here's why it unlocked under hard stresses to the edge when opened.
In "popping" the knife literally tens of thousands of times over the years, the round hole in the pivot area had elongated enough to cause the blade to be capable of moving further than it should have.

That part was replaced and the knife was "good to go" under testing the next day in an attempt to recreate the problem before I would carry it again with defense in mind. It has remained "good to go" since then. This was 3-4 years ago. I don't often carry that knife anymore except for classes as an off side clipped pocket knife.

I'm sure he has seen this over the years on others who have "flicked" the knife violently numerous times and had issies similair to my experience.

That knife popped at least 30,000 times and had an issue after many years of this happening. Good to be able to see the problem created in training than when my Ars is on the line in a defensive posture.
Another reason I advocate training realistically to work out any serious issues which would not become known until you actually needed the damned thing.

There is no inferiority to Allens knives that I can see. First, very few will open their knife that many times in a lifetime of use. Second, the violent nature of the "Brownie pop" creates an overly stressfull scenario on the parts the knife is made with. Third, parts wear over time. The amount of wear depends on many factors in the overall picture.

I haven't seen Darryls knives in person, nor have issues with his products, and to the contrary have heard good things about his products.

I can pretty much state that if he uses anything other than maybe cryptonite [ any metals, any heat treat ], I'll be able to do the same thing over time the same timeframe as with Allens knife.

An auto puts about 20% of the stress I induce onto my knives with the "Brownie Pop". Thats would and should not be a concern.

Not many hwere will subject their knife to 30,000 plus hard openings to realize the knife is beginning to wear on contact points through the stresses it's put through.

Allen does not make excuses or use inferior materials. People should not be making those statements based on others obswervations but instead should be stating what they know to be facts, not subjective bantering back and forth between people who don't really use their knives but play with them.

Allen has every right to be concerned about his products care and maintenance of same. He was good enough to replace at his cost the parts I had basically destroyed unintentionally.

Others mileage may vary, but I don't think any maker can claim theirs won't fail, wear out, etc as I can certainly wear one out given the time and inclination. I know several others who I have trained with that could do the same thing.

Brownie
 
Well once I managed to give folder a very noticable blade play by flick. It was rather cheap (less then 25$. But still, this is possible.
 
I rarely flick my knives. I understand the impulse to flick, but that impulse is slight with me. When I was new to knives, flicking held more of an attraction for me. But now - no.
Common sense, whatever that is, suggests that it is better, for the knife, to not flick as opposed to flick.
That a knife can't take a lot of flicking is hardly proof of inferior design and/or materials. It could simply be that flicking is outside of the knife's performance goals, as established by the maker or manufacturer. Flicking is hardly an essential knife quality. Knives are primarily made for cutting stuff.
Of course, the question of flicking has long been pondered by some of history's greatest minds. Even Shakespeare asked the question : " To flick, or not to flick ...". This was subsequently altered by public-safety bureaucrats to the more familiar phrase " To be, or not to be... ", as the flicking question, when uttered on stage in theatres, would cause violent riots among audiences, with many lives lost. Such violent riots of disagreement are sometimes seen here on Bladeforums.
 
A problem after eight years and "30,000 plus hard openings" is a testament to how well made Elishewitz Knifes are made IMHO!

I flip open my Large Classic Sebenza 1000's of times without one worry and before anyone says it i don't care one bit if that hurts my warranty or not, not one problem with it's lockup and no sign of ware even on the stop pin!

Flip away i say, it's only a tool!
James
 
Oh, I flick plenty, probably more than most in the last 15 years, and will continue to do so with all the tools of my trade.

I really don't think knives were designed to last forever, no cryptonite on this planet I'm aware of anyway. Things wear out from use, most never use the knife to the point of failure.

And yes, every knife can be made to fail given the time and inclination to make it so. It could have happened to any of the folders I carry, it just happened to be one from Allen.

I'm not aware of any knife maker who guarantees his product will not wear or fail forever. If I were to find such a maker who made the type of knife I prefer I'd buy it just to prove them wrong.

Nothing made of steel lasts forever if used often enough no matter the heat treat, materials used, or anything else. Wanna bet I can not make one fail in less than a year of abusing it religously?

If you find a maker who thinks I can't have him send me one and I'll get it back to him in one years time with all kinds of issues.

Brownie
 
Are you going to tell us what the "Brownie Pop" is, or do we have to take the class? :)

Originally posted by brownie0486

I have had the Elish titanium linerlock for 12 years. I have developed a technique unique to myself and my students called the "Brownie Pop". It slams the knife blade open with extreme force, not just flipping them, but with almost violent force. It is a positive technique thats faster than anything anyone else has developed to date in any of my classes.
Click to expand...
 
Most people who have seen it are from classes or friends.

Explaining how it works is difficult at best and I don't want people attempting to follow a narrative, not get it down, and report it doesn't work.

It does, many use it, nothing faster they have seen [ or myself ] and it takes the potential to have the knife stopped upon drawing it and attempting a "flip/flick".

Jimmy Keating named it after I showed the technique. He called the technique the "pop" as thats what they [ I use double knives and pop both simultaneously ]sound like opening and locking into position. So it has been shown as the "Brownie Pop" since.

Brownie
 
I've "flipped" for years and have never had a problem. I have sufficiently strong thenar musculature so that I can open most knives with a flick of my thumb against the stud. I rarely use a wrist flick. I have friends (mostly not that familiar with knives) who pull out a knife and use a strong supination-to-pronation wrist flick to open their knives. This causes a violent opening action that I can't see any good coming from other than being somewhat flashy.

I don't like using a slow thumb opening where you keep your thumb on the stud and roll the blade out. Many liner-lock knives that I carry have an indent in the blade for the liner bearing to fit into effectively keeping the knife closed. This requires a small effort to overcome, and once it opens, the blade suddenly changes speed. I find that I have better control using a thumb flip.

I can see a violent wrist flip causing premature wear on the pivot and stop pins, but a simple thumb flip should not cause premature wear, in my opinion. Besides, I'm like others on this forum who view the knife as a tool and tools eventually wear out with use and have to be replaced. If I had a 3-bajillion dollar hand-made jeweled collecters' edition serial number 1 of 3 knife, I probably wouldn't carry it, much less flip it. That's why I don't buy many super expensive customs. I like to use what I buy.

--nathan
 
You must remember that Allen buy before (for now I'm not sure) spare part from Taïwan to build his models. Also in some state they said that a knife who can-be open by flicking is an auto.
 
What spare parts was Alen using from Taiwan?
And more importantly how did you come by that piece of information?

This should be interesting

Brownie
 
brownie - that's some serious flicking, popping or flipping, whichever term one wants to use. That also says a lot for Allen's work. Since, it wasn't until very recently did makers begin to actually engineer a folder to be opened with such dynamic force. Which is what I think Darrel was trying to say. An average folder(ie. quality make) will take a lot of abuse from flipping, even though it wasn't designed for that purpose, as you illustrated. Darrel has worked at a design that will handle the stresses specific to flipping. He's explained the design to me and while I don't have any experience as a machinist, I understood what he was saying. :eek:

Your other point, everything will eventually wear out. No doubt about it. Heck, if knifemakers started making knives that didn't wear out,they would put themselves out of business.:D
 
Dirk:

Understood sir about this new design of Darrels.
Haven't seen it but it sounds interesting to say the least.

Allens knife, as stated, took 30,000 hard openings. On the way home tonight I tried to really think about that figure. Near as I can tell I would think 30 times a day average times 8 years.

Math works out to something like 85,000 plus.
I carried it everyday as the off hand knife for 8 years. Haven't carried another knife that long at one time before or since.

It has some battle scars but otherwise is as fit now as when I bought her after being repaired. I paid 350.00 for that knife and that works out to pennies a day.

I popped so much I got elbow problems and had to stop except when training others in that technique. After several years of not doing it unless necessary the elbows have calmed down so I can do it for a day in training and not suffer too bad.

Brownie
 
Thanks Darrel

I only carry it now to demonstrate the double pops as that is the knife I did it with all that time and the hand knows what to do with it without thinking even if its weeks between visits in the hand.

I don't think I have a thousand pops on it since back to me in 4 years.

I used to carry two tacicals but now only one primary and one neck knife. I'm getting old I guess. :rolleyes:

It's no longer my favorite but I have good memories about that knife. It served me well. I do keep going back to how long it was like that without knowing though, very disturbing, and a lesson learned the easy way through great instruction way back when.

Brownie
 
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