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See above. I'm not very good at sarcasm.
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Knife for defence against wild critters ?
- Thread starter pitdog
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See above. I'm not very good at sarcasm.
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Should also work for two legged bears.
Let's just go out and study them in their habitats to understand their body language and customs.
Both kinds of bears see you either as a resource/food or a threat. Knowing how to talk/behave one out this would be great but nothing I want to study one on one. Any volunteers?
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You're either completely misunderstanding my post, or deliberately misinterpreting it to serve your sarcasm. Regardless, there are very few people with extensive, firsthand experience among wild animals who will disagree that understanding body language is an important part of avoiding conflict. If you see every problem as a nail, then its easy to think that the only solution is a hammer.
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I agree with you but doubt any of us city folks could learn to "undertand body language and behaviour" first hand.
It's dangerous if you are unlucky and it takes way more time than picking a knife in a forum. Your post interpreted as if you thought that understanding them is a better use of time then learning about knives. How much time does a post here take?
Just driving to the next bear takes me 30 minutes and that poor guy is in a zoo. The real ones ca 4 hours one way. Add to that probably having to study different ages and genders of bears during different times of the year when hungry, when full, when in heat, when playful and so on and wondering about a knife or spray in a forum seems more doable especially when the chance of actually encountering one is quite low. But maybe "learning about them" was meant as online research. Well, that could maybe be faster than debating a couple of knives but could also be less fun.
Let's assume instead of BF debates we actually studied bears in nature or online. Does it help? If the bear is so close that one could use a knife I doubt many people, even with bear knowledge would be able to tell if he just wants to play. Personally I would be too scared to analyze anything. Could probably not even tell the day of the week and would be lucky to have enough coordination to squeeze out some bear spray.
Now some country folks however who are around bears 24/7 might be more cool and experienced by default without any extra studying but they probably wouldn't be here and discuss any bear defense knives.
Long thing short.
I agree it's better to know more about bears but first hand studying them for us normal BF folks would take way too much time and could end up in a situation which we don't want to begin with.
But if we discuss some more I might as well spend the days driving to the next state park and study some from very far away with binoculars and maybe a big knife, just in case.
All I can say is this:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/04/04/why-was-the-grizzly-man-eaten/
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html
http://jimlynch.com/other-musings/timothy-treadwell-bear-expert-devoured-by-bears/
Wild animals are wild animals and to steal a part of the one article....they do not "befriend" us. Similarly, Timothy Treadwell was documenting bears in the field for 13 years.....and apparently didn't quite catch the "body language" of the 23 year old brown bear that ate [most of] him.
If anyone intends to use a bladed weapon to try and defend themselves against that ^^.....in my opinion, you had better be more than 2/3rds Cherokee trained Warrior, with a DNA infusion from Chuck Norris....and put those blades on your feet for the fastest round-house stabbing Native kick of a lifetime.
I'm 45 years old and have spent 30+ of those years in the woods every chance I got. I like to think that I know what I'm doing and in most cases.....most cases...I'm absolutely fine with what I know and do. That doesn't mean I'm going to have the ability to predict what any wild animal is going to do especially if it feels psychotic, threatened or hungry.
I've seen hikers [on the AT here in PA] randomly attacked by squirrels and I myself, was 'stalked' by a bobcat while hunting Whitetail deer. That didn't end well for the bobcat...but then again, I didn't use my KA*BAR either.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/04/04/why-was-the-grizzly-man-eaten/
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html
http://jimlynch.com/other-musings/timothy-treadwell-bear-expert-devoured-by-bears/
Wild animals are wild animals and to steal a part of the one article....they do not "befriend" us. Similarly, Timothy Treadwell was documenting bears in the field for 13 years.....and apparently didn't quite catch the "body language" of the 23 year old brown bear that ate [most of] him.
If anyone intends to use a bladed weapon to try and defend themselves against that ^^.....in my opinion, you had better be more than 2/3rds Cherokee trained Warrior, with a DNA infusion from Chuck Norris....and put those blades on your feet for the fastest round-house stabbing Native kick of a lifetime.
I'm 45 years old and have spent 30+ of those years in the woods every chance I got. I like to think that I know what I'm doing and in most cases.....most cases...I'm absolutely fine with what I know and do. That doesn't mean I'm going to have the ability to predict what any wild animal is going to do especially if it feels psychotic, threatened or hungry.
I've seen hikers [on the AT here in PA] randomly attacked by squirrels and I myself, was 'stalked' by a bobcat while hunting Whitetail deer. That didn't end well for the bobcat...but then again, I didn't use my KA*BAR either.
still jet lagged from a trip to japan, of which they also have bears, but mostly in delicious soup.
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I am by no means suggesting an absurd premise such as "befriending" bears, nor anything resembling a Treadwell approach, which was naive and ridiculous, in my opinion. All wild animals are, to a certain degree, unpredictable, but taking the time to understand how bears communicate and behave, can truly go a long way. That doesn't necessarily equate to a "touch-feely, give a bear a hug" approach - it's just common sense. Surprise, close range encounters aside, bears will often give warnings before engaging in conflict - it's how they interact with each other, and often how they interact with other species as well. Learning to recognize the things that bears do when they are saying "you're in my space, and the next step will escalate the conflict" for example, means you should respond accordingly or face the consequences. If you have no idea how to recognize those warnings, it's easy to blunder into something that is worse than it needs to be, instead of backing out of it appropriately.
None of this is to say that developing such understanding will mitigate all conflicts, but it has the potential to mitigate some of them. Too many people simply see a bear and think they need to shoot it, or automatically prepare to defend their life. Many bear encounters don't immediately need to escalate to this, except due to irrational fear, which tends to end badly for one side or the other, or both.
If you want to carry something, carry bear spray. It has a much higher success rate than knives do.
You and I have differing opinions that will likely not change. I mean the following in the most respectful manner........
........13 years is a long time to "understand" bears....and it still proved a futile move. He's dead....and by many standards, he was more an "expert" than anyone on any forum board anywhere we may look. To suggest any novice to "study them" - but not from the safety of their books or computer screens - is [IMO] irresponsible and extremely dangerous.
I don't particularly care how bears interact together....I care how they are going to interact with me. That holds true for any animal that has the real potential to make me their dinner.
And as far as wanting to "carry something" - screw the pepper spray and carry a .44 Magnum or larger. There have been enough reports that sprays have little to no affect to suggest that we shouldn't even waste our money. The .44 has a much greater success rate than Cayenne pepper so that is what I'll carry.
I'm not trying to argue....I'm simply stating that bears, bobcats, pumas, panthers, chupacabras, bigfoot, thunderbirds and any other predatory animal is extremely dangerous in the field and all have the true potential to bring you an untimely - and most assuredly ugly - death.
Books are for studying.....live predators are for perfecting your avoidance techniques. If you encounter them in the field, your best bet is to back away slowly or fire that weapon at it if attacked.
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It is hard for me to fully commit to these "stab a bear" threads because they are fringe on multiple levels. But I guess that it's an individual choice all way round. Last spring I was metal detecting up in the Boreal and I walked up to a man and woman. I called out to them not to be alarmed because of the knife on my hip, as I have a concern about spring bears. The guy smiled and said that it's ok and that he understood, then he pointed to his hip, and the fixed blade that he wore. His wife/girlfriend, whatever, also had a hip knife. They were fishing and had made several spring bear sightings, including a cinnamon colored that was up in a tree. I had no real need to go into that area and it was really dense bush, so I used discretion and bypassed the spot. Why poke a hornets nest. So you see, it is not just the folks on these forums that want to err on the side of caution. B.T.W., the couple were locals.....On the other hand if someone gets their rocks off on the intentional fantasy of fighting a bear with a knife, they are likely to be found partially eaten by the search party.
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Please leave any comparisons to Treadwell out of this, as I already stated I am suggesting nothing comparable to his approach. The man was a deranged wingnut. And it's too bad that in the world of simplistic, "either/or" internet discussions, if one suggests what I did above, they must automatically be a "Treadwell wannabe," but unfortunately so it is. Regardless, that's not what I'm saying.
As for implementing 'avoidance techniques' I agree with you - avoidance is by far the best policy when possible in bear country (as well as just about every other dangerous animal). Give bears their space, back off when you see one, and it's highly likely nothing bad will happen. You and I simply disagree on the spectrum of what constitutes "avoidance." I don't believe the only valid avoidance technique is a firearm (if that can even be considered avoidance), despite the fact that I do sometimes carry one in bear country, situation dependent.
And for every study showing bear spray to be ineffective, there are many, many studies to the contrary. Just as importantly, there are also far more studies documenting the inability of people to properly use high-caliber handguns in fast, high-stress situations, and which often only serve to make the situation worse for all involved by creating a wounded bear. To suggest that "novices" should carry a .44 for such situations instead of other measures is hardly more responsible, nor any less dangerous. And I say that with the full disclosure that I own a .44, but carry no illusions about the shortcomings of its effectiveness in real bear situations - which statistically are often surprise attacks that happen very fast, and at very close range - not the sorts of situations where one has typically has time to draw, acquire very quick aim on a small and specific area of a fast-moving target and then fire effectively. And then keep in mind that if you don't resolve the situation in one shot, that is likely the only shot you're going to get. Most people kid themselves about their ability to do this, thinking that because they are reasonably competent at the range that they'll be "able to deal with a bear," but if you have specific and extensive training in such situations, then by all means it's not necessarily a bad option as a last resort.
In all honestly, I wish you the best in your travels in bear country.
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I think you misunderstood my point.
I'm not trying to imply/compare you to the "deranged/nut status" that we both agree on abut Treadwell...We both agree that he was a loon for doing it the way he did it...what I am saying is he spend a good portion of his lifetime studying those things that ended up killing him. "Learning" about a thing over a period of years can make that person an 'expert' on that subject...my point was merely "it still didn't help him." All those years of acquiring all that knowledge is noteworthy....it is also noteworthy that he trusted a wild animal way too much and died as a result of his own ignorance of it. His extensive knowledge meant nothing while the bear was chowing down on him.
We agree to disagree
. "Avoidance" to me is not standing there taking [mental or otherwise] notes, even at a distance. Avoidance is steering clear of it if at all possible. The firearm comment is less "avoidance" than it is defense. Because no matter what we know of a predator species, the "unpredictable" is often what gets us.
My occupation compels me to deal with the most dangerous predator of all - man. This predator can be communicated with much of the time...but not always...and man is the most unpredictable predator of all. Oh sure, we can have FBI 'profilers' create a 'picture' of what we are looking for but even that has a measure of uncertainty. A bear is a bear and is tuned to its own nature...but we cannot communicate with it at all. Like man, the bear thinks it is the master of its own [little] universe...and the bear usually is, if given the fact that "unprepared man" shows up in his neighborhood. Pepper sprays work haphazardly with Humans and also with animals. Sprays have a finite shelf life whereas firearms do not. One is usually guaranteed to work and the other is questionable at best.
So let's assume a common interpretation of this. if given a choice of a 50/50 chance that a spray will/won't be effective, I cannot believe someone would actually pick that knowing it might work only half the time.
OK...so we agree that surprise attacks are more likely to happen than 'other' encounters...to the point where a fast draw of anything is probably not going to happen....the can of spray that may/may not work is a better choice than a firearm?
I dunno dude.....you and I have completely different outlooks on how to handle dangerous animals. Full disclosure, I'm an avid hunter and have been for more than 30 years. All of those years have been in "bear country." I choose to be in the situation and if something were to happen while out in the field, I know full well that I put myself there. I also put my trust in the fact that the firearms I carry will handle those animals. Even if I were to "miss" hitting the animal, that loud "bang" may well be enough to make it turn and run. No such thing with a can of spray that may or may not not work.
And I'm in no way suggesting that the 'novice' arm themselves to the teeth, especially if they are less than proficient in the use of those [heavy caliber] firearms. My opinion is that it's has the greater potential to give the average hiker a better chance at survival - more so than some spray can filled with doubt. It has loud report and has lethal potential....whereas a can of spray makes no noise outside "PSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSH" and certainly no lethal defense potential. You can't even smack the bear with it in the hopes it won't laugh at you for doing so.
We agree to disagree....and that's ok.
I also wish you well in your travels.
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This is the best thread ever!
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Sounds like we may have more in common that you might think. :thumbup:
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I don't think I'd ever try to take on a bear with a knife. At least not the bears in my neck of the woods. When I saw a bear take a 30-06 three times to the chest and keep on running like it didn't even care, any heroic thoughts of a final stand with a knife were dropped like the turd down my pant leg. Vermont (where I live) has a growing bear population and I've noticed them more in the last 5 or so years cutting through backyards and such. We're heavily armed folk here, and you can be damn sure I ain't getting in any knife fights with a bear.
Edit: Yes the bear from that story died, but it made it for quite a while. Reminds me of when I was a kid, the first time I went bow hunting with the father of the girl I was dating at the time. The man had a clean shot through a moose's heart and we had to track it for 4 hours!! Finally found it laying in a pool of blood. Some animals just don't go down easy.
Edit: Yes the bear from that story died, but it made it for quite a while. Reminds me of when I was a kid, the first time I went bow hunting with the father of the girl I was dating at the time. The man had a clean shot through a moose's heart and we had to track it for 4 hours!! Finally found it laying in a pool of blood. Some animals just don't go down easy.
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Hi Guys
I suppose one can discuss about this problem until the cows come home, because there doesn´t exist any solution. Bearspray, firearms, knives - each of these can be the right or wrong choice, depending on the situation. Anyhow, if a bear, and especially a large one, will get you - unforeseeable -, your chance to survive is like winning the jackpot, doesn´t care about whether you use spray, revolver or a blade - and the worst of them is to use the knife. But let the people laugh about thinking of a knife, it´s still a little bit better than nothing, and a knife you have to carry anyhow in the wilderness. But then why does nobody laugh about playing lottery? Same chance and nevertheless a lot of winners.
An attack will happen within a few seconds or even less, no possibility to prepare yourself for this nice event, and that´s imho the main problem and makes it so difficult to decide on the best weapon for defence. Might be you do not have the possibility to draw your knife, your pistol or the big canister anyhow, but due to the fact that this is a knife forum, and accordingly all members are familiar in using knives, I would state the best chance reaching a weapon instinctively and hopefully just in time is the knife and not the spray, and for me it gives a much better feeling.
It´s totally different if you can watch the bear and he sees you - and especially then knowledge about behaviour of this species is extremely important, as already stated by other members. But if even in such a situation it´s not possible to avoid confrontation, a weapon of more reach like a spear, a sword or a khukri may be the first choice or, of course, firearms.
As I am a German, making survival tours as well to Canada in small groups -, or to Alaska always alone -, it´s not allowed to me to carry firearms. So the weapons I choose are of great importance to me, especially when hiking alone. Here I usually have bear spray on my right side, a spear point survival/fighting knife with 9 ½ inch blade left for a quick draw (I am a right hand) and a wooden spear with a fire hardened tip as a walking stick with me. But I am thinking about of leaving spray and spear for the future and changing the knife into one with a shorter blade, because of quicker handling. And this primarily was the reason to ask experienced members of this forum, which blade length they would prefer in my situation. In former days I prefered a blade of 11 to 12 inches, because my thought was, that to reach the vitals, anything shorter wouldn´t do the job. Now, after reading all the stuff regarding this problem for years, I think a blade of around 8 inches may be the best choice, because of fast handling and causing enough damage, but I am not sure. And as you can read here, all kind of blades are mentioned from a 4 incher to a 14 inch blade, from a khukri to a sword. Yes, I know, it depends on the situations and no one has a solution but hopefully some ideas.
So, it is not necessary to point out again that a knife isn´t the first choice fighting a bear, but we are in a blade forum. Some people as well, without any doubts, may discuss, which firearms or calibers, or which size of bear spray canisters might be the best.. But this indeed is all I would like to know.
And do not forget in the wilderness there are many other critters, having an eye on you.
Would be great to get an answer
a Bladeforum fan from Germany
I suppose one can discuss about this problem until the cows come home, because there doesn´t exist any solution. Bearspray, firearms, knives - each of these can be the right or wrong choice, depending on the situation. Anyhow, if a bear, and especially a large one, will get you - unforeseeable -, your chance to survive is like winning the jackpot, doesn´t care about whether you use spray, revolver or a blade - and the worst of them is to use the knife. But let the people laugh about thinking of a knife, it´s still a little bit better than nothing, and a knife you have to carry anyhow in the wilderness. But then why does nobody laugh about playing lottery? Same chance and nevertheless a lot of winners.
An attack will happen within a few seconds or even less, no possibility to prepare yourself for this nice event, and that´s imho the main problem and makes it so difficult to decide on the best weapon for defence. Might be you do not have the possibility to draw your knife, your pistol or the big canister anyhow, but due to the fact that this is a knife forum, and accordingly all members are familiar in using knives, I would state the best chance reaching a weapon instinctively and hopefully just in time is the knife and not the spray, and for me it gives a much better feeling.
It´s totally different if you can watch the bear and he sees you - and especially then knowledge about behaviour of this species is extremely important, as already stated by other members. But if even in such a situation it´s not possible to avoid confrontation, a weapon of more reach like a spear, a sword or a khukri may be the first choice or, of course, firearms.
As I am a German, making survival tours as well to Canada in small groups -, or to Alaska always alone -, it´s not allowed to me to carry firearms. So the weapons I choose are of great importance to me, especially when hiking alone. Here I usually have bear spray on my right side, a spear point survival/fighting knife with 9 ½ inch blade left for a quick draw (I am a right hand) and a wooden spear with a fire hardened tip as a walking stick with me. But I am thinking about of leaving spray and spear for the future and changing the knife into one with a shorter blade, because of quicker handling. And this primarily was the reason to ask experienced members of this forum, which blade length they would prefer in my situation. In former days I prefered a blade of 11 to 12 inches, because my thought was, that to reach the vitals, anything shorter wouldn´t do the job. Now, after reading all the stuff regarding this problem for years, I think a blade of around 8 inches may be the best choice, because of fast handling and causing enough damage, but I am not sure. And as you can read here, all kind of blades are mentioned from a 4 incher to a 14 inch blade, from a khukri to a sword. Yes, I know, it depends on the situations and no one has a solution but hopefully some ideas.
So, it is not necessary to point out again that a knife isn´t the first choice fighting a bear, but we are in a blade forum. Some people as well, without any doubts, may discuss, which firearms or calibers, or which size of bear spray canisters might be the best.. But this indeed is all I would like to know.
And do not forget in the wilderness there are many other critters, having an eye on you.
Would be great to get an answer
a Bladeforum fan from Germany
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Kuhler Name Halbschlaf
I don't think many people here have experiences killing bears with knives. I don't. So it's purely academic based on experience with other kind of fights/training and what people read about what happened to others and imagination and common sense. Still its as good as gets and more useful than picking a random knife.
In our HI subforum I heard of a Nepali killing a bear with a Kukri and one forum member last year having to kill one in Alaska with a Kukri.
It shows a Kukri can work but doesn't disprove that some other knife might not work even better.
A logical approach would be to study bear attacks.
Does a bear usually stand upright and pounces his whole body on you or does he stay away and uses his paws from a distance. I have no clue. Maybe if you are passionate about it you could check YouTube for all possible bear attack videos to see if there are any patterns.
For one scenario a smaller nimble blade might be good since you can draw it better and start cutting here and there without much thinking even when pinned down during a surprise attack. Double edge might be good if you know you won't cut yourself.
A longer blade would be better if a bear usually keeps his distance (do they?) during the fight or you see it coming. Then the longer the better though I doubt you would want to carry a whole gladius for the unlikely even of a hostile encounter.
Also if you choose a long blade get one which isn't completely useless at close range, just in case you get surprised or the bear closes in and you can't keep your distance.
In addition to the type of knife i would research how to carry it. Where do you keep your arms when surprised by an attack? On your back, your hip or in front of your chest/head. Maybe having it on your chest/stomach, handle down, would be best. It's also easier to pull out if you are pinned on your back and not too bad to wiggle out when pinned on your stomach. For sure much better than carrying behind you, lying on your back, and now having to move your hand behind you sacrificing forward defense and trying to pull it out from under your own and the bears bodyweight.
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I do. I fight grizz in summer and Polar bears during the colder months. The black bears aren't actually worth unsheathing my knife so I just kick their a@@.