Knife for Philmont

When I went to Philmont in 1990 I carried a Victorinox BSA Huntsman if I have the model memorized correctly and a Buck Scoutlight folder because it was a lockblade but lighter than my 110. I liked the Huntsman because it had a small but effective saw, an awesome pair of scissors, and other invaluable tools. I carried the Buck because I was used to always having them when in the outdoors and had not encountered a problem I could solve without them. The Philmont instructor that looked over my gear gave me a real hard time and almost insisted I leave the Buck at base camp. While I respected his opinion I politely and insistantly refused. If I lost one knife I could have continued with the other, I can't imagine not having one knife.

Halfway through the trip one of my fellow scouts had a knife close on his hand cutting it VERY deep. They had to hike him up the side of the mountain so he could reach a jeep trail and be taken back to base camp. He got stitches and was waiting for us at our next stop like a day and a half later. Just an interesting story of knife closeure, I'm sure someone has one about how someone fell on a knife and if it was able to close they would have not been cut but with all due respect to BSA I have never seen it. I have seen blades close.

If I were going to day I would take my same Vict. Huntsman I took then which is still available complete with BSA emblem. The Buck is discontinued so I would also take my plain edge Endura and not even tell the employee about it. One person in the group should have a leatherman or multi tool for the pliers though. Talk amongst yourselves, someone in the group is probably already planning on taking one.
 
All you will need is the SAK Classic (pen blade, toothpick, tweezers, scissors, nail file with screwdriver tip). Weight, even ounces is very important when backpacking (especially at high elevations). Your leader will carry a multi tool for group use. Anything beyond that knive is just extra weight. I will add that this is my opinion but I am an Assistant Scoutmaster, Eagle Scout, and someone who has backpacked all his life. If your trip was not fully supervised my recommendations would be different and as a leader I do carry a Leatherman.
 
When I went in 1998, I took a Leatherman (standard model) and some cheap lock back no name. The Leatherman got used a TON and the little lockback got used to open heat sealed food and slice cheese and sausage.
I would say a good multi-tool, and some sort of small knife just for cutting. When I was there a fire ban was in effect, so the tomahawk one of the scoutmasters brought didn't get much use. People didn't give him any crap about it though.
David
 
Jammmin528 said:
All you will need is the SAK Classic (pen blade, toothpick, tweezers, scissors, nail file with screwdriver tip). Weight, even ounces is very important when backpacking (especially at high elevations). Your leader will carry a multi tool for group use. Anything beyond that knive is just extra weight. I will add that this is my opinion but I am an Assistant Scoutmaster, Eagle Scout, and someone who has backpacked all his life. If your trip was not fully supervised my recommendations would be different and as a leader I do carry a Leatherman.
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My time as scout and scoutmaster preceded most of the knives recommended in this thread. Then, most of us carried 4-bladed scout pattern knives, mine a Kamp King. If needed, hatchet, axe, saw and pliers were available stowed in troop gear. I don't remember any situation in which a particular knife or tool was sorely missed. We didn't backpack, although took some overnighter bike trips and lots of day hikes.

From those and later military experience, I second Jammin's posting, especially the part about traveling light. Truly, on long backpack outings, ounces count(ses). Hardcore backpackers seem fanatical about lightening the load in what appear trivial amounts. Although not having gone this far myself, I knew a guy who used to trim his maps to just the route he was traveling. For those who are skeptical, I can only say that it will take only one good walkabout to convince yourself.
 
I agree that light is good, and I too have seen the peopel that are fanatics. there are two ways to look at it....
Go light by getting (really expensive) lightweight gear, or remove unnecessary weight from what you are taking. I honestly do not think the few ounces a good multi tool etc weighs will make a difference.
David
 
kenk said:
Scouting "discourages use of large sheath knives". They don't forbid them, nor do they forbid locking folders. My son's troop (I'm an Asst. Scoutmaster in it) allows reasonable-sized fixed blades. Some scout-owned camps do ban fixed blade knives.
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Exactly!! BSA hasn't gone completely sheeple yet. There are some influences that try to persued you into believing that fixed blades are banned in BSA, but it ain't true. Check the BSA website.
 
simms65 said:
I agree that light is good, and I too have seen the peopel that are fanatics. there are two ways to look at it....
Go light by getting (really expensive) lightweight gear, or remove unnecessary weight from what you are taking. I honestly do not think the few ounces a good multi tool etc weighs will make a difference.
David
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We found the Squirt, at 2 ounces, was fine for pack repair, which is about all I can think of that you'd need pliers for anyway. I have other, bigger multitools, but there is a lot of gear to carry for a 2-week expedition, the altitude is high, and depending on crew choice the mileage can be high. I hear what you're saying about 6 ounces only being 6 ounces, but they do add up and after 15 miles on the trail they can really be felt.
 
mayakkaman said:
. I asked why on the lockback, and was told if you fell on it, it would be potentially more dangerous than a non locking folder. .
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They encourage lockbacks because a non locking knife would be more likely to close on your finger. my troop wont let you carry a nonlocking folder unless youve had a full totin chip(no corners cut) for at least a year.
 
well ive been in scouts for a long time and am an eagle scout, ive never been to philmost but ive been to 2 jambos, and gone camping more times that i can count even if i tried. from my experances you usually dont need anything other than a blade. i persoanly have a nice shrade that about 3-4 years ago and it is still pretty sharp with pretty much no sharpening (and the little sharpening done to it probably didnt help it much if anything it might have hurt it). the thing is light and very durable.

if you want a multi knife i found the gerbers to function better than leathermans (mostly just they way you open and lock pieces out).

persoanly when i go camping and stuff now i carry at least 3 knives either on me or in my back pack (at least one on me) and they are : gerber multi tool, shrade folder, and a gerber boxcutter. if i am somewhere i dont have to worry about people freaking out about having a sheath knife on my belt (pretty much not around scouts or not indoors ar oudn town) i will normaly carry a 3 inch blade sheath knife i have (kinda junky but it works).

i would say you probably will not really use a multi tool but if you dont have it then you are gona need it. best bet is to get a nice single blade folder and find some one in the patrol you are hiking in that has a multi tool if you need it (yall are supposed to be a team so why not work togeather)

good luck and stay safe.
YIS
-matt

-edit PS
does any one have any reasoning they can come out with as to why the boy scouts dont like sheath knives (other than that the people tha tmake the rules are stupid)? if anything the sheath knives are safer since you dont have to move the blade to the use and storage positions.
 
According to my assistant scout master they are more weapon than tool, but that is bull, they may make more efective weapons but the only more effective tool is a multitool.
 
lol, i love that exucse, ya becasue the type of knife used as the choice styhle of knife when doing rescues to help save lives is more of a weapon.

hmm thinking about it now i can think of so many more stupid things ive done with a folder than i could even try to do with a sheath knife.


-matt
 
mayakkaman said:
From the training I received for "outdoor leadership" I was told not to use a fixed blade or a lock back. I asked why on the lockback, and was told if you fell on it, it would be potentially more dangerous than a non locking folder. You have to remember that everything is guided for the youngest member of the troop who would be 11 years old, I do not agree with not being able to use a lock back, but this is what the BSA Scouter who taught the class told me. When I was in scouts we had some scouts carrying K-98 bayonets lol. I personally like the SAK very much, having even used the magnifying glass to start camp fires in Fl. From my experience its all the knife you need in a scout setting where you will not be doing any heavy wood work, and in that case I use a small bow saw and not a hatchet. In a NON scouting situation I carry a Frosts Mora and have a GB small forestry axe and plenty of water proof matches along with tinder.
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You are not responsible when Scouters decide to make up fantasy rules.

The only policy of the B.S.A. on the national level about knives is set forth in the Handbook: it does not "encourage" (The word "discourages" or discourage" is not used.) "large sheath knives." Safety is not mentioned. Instead the stated rationale is: "They are heavy, akward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores."

Philmont has apparently elected to create an extra layer of rules, as is true of many Troops and Councils who seem to feel that they can "improve" on the national policy of the B.S.A. Environmental concerns might be a basis for the ban on fixed-blade knives -- except that axes and saws are not banned. There is no logical reason (I have asked. Weight? I have many FB knives that are lighter than many folders that I have.).

Safety? In numbers of injuries alone, the most dangerous woods tool in Scouting is the non-locking folding knife (closing on fingers). Taking severity into account, the hand axe is most dangerous (geometry perfect for hacking knees and well built to remove fingers). The fixed-blade knives sold by the B.S.A. as part of the Chef''s Kit cause a relatively trivial number of injuries, but it would be nice if handling fixed-blade knives was still covered as part of Tot'N'Chip and in the Handbook. After all, Scouts WILL be encountering fixed-blade knives so it would be well to teach how to use them.

Phimont utility? A good small multitool (e.g. Leatherman Juice or the smaller Gerber) as a crew item is important for pack and stove repair. Tweezers and scissors to cut moleskin need to be in there somewhere. A light Gerber slide-out saw is an insurance item that will probably not be used -- like most of the first aid kit. The most common use of a blade is opening food packages. A light lock-blade is plenty for that job.

Theft? In three trips to Philmont I found five SAK's laying about (and two watches, 17 tent pegs, and numerous articles of clothing). Two of the SAKS belonged to Scouts in the crew I was supporting. One had initials and was returnable to the owner in our "sister crew" - who had reported it stolen (He left in in a toilet.). I wonder if the remaining two were reported stolen. Still, watching out for your stuff and not taking heirlooms/really expensive gear is good advice. A Scout is Thrifty.
 
The handbook guidlines about fixed blades are exellent. The made up ones
seem politicaly motivated and unnecasary. I was not in scouts but have done alot of hiking and I am not a fan of big fixed blades for bush use. I would much rather have a small fixed blade like my mora clipper(a scout is thrifty) or my
new scrapyard SS4(infi impreses my pals) and an hatchet like a firestone.
A big bowie is great as a fighter but for chopping I want an axe.
 
Our council put the nix on fixed blades and only allows folders with blades that "are no wider than your palm" as a rule of thumb. I sent my son to summer camp last year with a Spyderco Native and it was a great lightweight carry knife.

I don't see the problem with a fixed blade knife. It is perhaps the safest knife around since it is what it is with no moving parts and a sheath to place it in for safety. I put a Chris Reeve Shadow on my belt for hiking trips. It has come in handy more than once.
 
My council put the no larger than your palm rule into effect too, but it is not enforced. I even showed my scimitar to my scoutmaster before i knew about the rule he just said, "Andrew you scare me and gave it back" that rule is also bull large knives are more useful for cutting jobs and in an emergency using a 2inch blade wont do as much good a a four inch.
 
SR_matt said:
-edit PS
does any one have any reasoning they can come out with as to why the boy scouts dont like sheath knives (other than that the people tha tmake the rules are stupid)? if anything the sheath knives are safer since you dont have to move the blade to the use and storage positions.
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This is the reason I have heard when I have inquired about the Boy Scouts shying away from fixed blades. It is in response to "Boys will be Boys" and "bigger is better". What was happening was that some of the boys were bringing bigger and bigger knives to camp. They were trying to impress their friends with the biggest knife at camp. Well at some camps the boys started showing up with machetes and small swords. The camps just became tired of dealing with the kid's getting carried away. By promoting folders you pretty much limit the size of the knife. I can't say that this is the official BSA position, but it does make some sense. It's too bad the adult leaders did not deal with it before things got out of hand.
 
that makes mroe sence as to the reasoning, it would have been much easier if they put the limit at something like 3-5inch blade and legal in the area.
-matt
 
I have been a cub scout, boy scout, (Star) cubmaster, asst. scoutmaster (twice) and a scoutmaster.

I always carried a 4 inch fixed blade knife, and usually a SAK. and I ALWAYS had a campfire!

What's the purpose of scouting if you can't be a traditional outdoorsman?
 
Ben Dover said:
I have been a cub scout, boy scout, (Star) cubmaster, asst. scoutmaster (twice) and a scoutmaster.

I always carried a 4 inch fixed blade knife, and usually a SAK. and I ALWAYS had a campfire!

What's the purpose of scouting if you can't be a traditional outdoorsman?
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An unusual question for a person of your great experience and long and valuable service.

The purpose of Scouting, from before you and I were born to the present day, is to produce good men and good citizens. Other words are used to expand on that purpose by providing details of what a good man and good citizen amounts too in the view of Scouting.

The outdoor program is a method, among others, that Scouting uses to produce those good citizens ("First you have to catch them." BP). It is not itself a purpose or objective. Never has been.

The fact that you and I (and millions of others) like the outdoor program -- or find it the aspect of Scouting that holds our attention most strongly -- does not turn a method into a purpose.

So, however silly you find bans or rules that limit what one can do or use in the outdoor progarm (and I find many of them them irrational in the extreme), you have to ask if that particular irritation is more important than achieving the purpose of Scouting. My answer is that the purpose is too imporatnt to let the ignorant and irrational drive me out of the program.

I also recall the explaination of "A Scout is Obedient." In accordance with that point of the Scout Law, I try to change irrational rules rather than setting a bad example by simply flaunting them. I have had some success in the matter of fixed-blade knife bans, and many failures.
 
I have been an advisor to two Philmont crews (advisors backpack with the Scouts, advise if asked, and possibly speak up in case of health or safety issues; Boys Scouts promotes youth leadership, decision making and living with the consequences). About the only sure thing that a crew will need to do is open plastic bags with food in them, and a small pair of scissors is the best thing for this purpose as it reduces the chance of spilling food. A small multi-tool is useful. I used the pliers to fix a Scout's glasses frame. One or two small knives will suffice for other cutting chores. I recommend each crew have a good fingernail clipper and a good toe nail clipper. From start to finish a Philmont trip could be two weeks, or even more, nails will need clipping. Watch toe nails, in particular, as they can be painful when wearing backpacking boots for 10 to 14 days in a row.

I love my fixed blade knives, but they are not necessary in today's Scouting. Leave no trace methods eliminate the need to cut firewood or create fuzzsticks. Bigger knives become a macho accessory, and Scouts are tempted to fool around with them.
 
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