Knife maker and sheath maker thought experiment

Diomedes Industries

Diomedes Industries

Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
7,443
Okay - so I checked out this site recently:

http://www.bayleyknife.com/site/bear.aspx

I see is selling this knife for 520 American - with a sheath.

bear_02_hd.jpg


EDIT: After this thread discussion I am amending my post to not sound negative. I realize that can set the wrong tone.

My question is - how much would makers here make this knife and sheath combo for - and is a name worth that much to you?

The consensus is that this knife can be made, with a decent profit margin for about 200 to 250 dollars. Is a name worth 200 dollars? If so, to whom.

TF
 
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Hey - They spelled Beer wrong ;)

As a person that is not a knife maker or sheath maker - I've learned a lot buy merely reading the things you noticed about this package.

I actually like the design of the knife and the sheath. I don't like all the writing and his name on the sheath though.
 
the company is based in the uk, the costs here would be significantly more than that. I also believe that the grind and shaping are done by hand. I think you're being a bit unfair based on lots of asssumptions here. There's no doubt that it's an expensive knife, and probbably overpriced, but it's not as bad as you make out
 
Nathan,

I haven't made it out to be anything. I totaled the material costs that were likely - and I asked the makers on this board (who hand grind their stuff too) what it would cost for them to make it and sell it.

Now - if they report that they would sell it for 200 dollars - and it costs 500 dollars to buy through the site - the bashing would be in the facts.

I COULD have said Bear eats shit and fakes many of his shows... but that, again, would be fact - not bashing.

TF
 
It all boils down to how much you want it I guess. Supply and demand will always play apart in pricing.

You can give any two makers the same piece of steel and materials. The knife when completed will allways cost diiferent in the end. If a maker decides his time making the knife justifies a high price, who am I to argue that....

I do feel that in regards to this particular knife, The Bear Grylls name is what is driving up the costs.
 
Not a steel I work with. That being said, using my AEB-L and sending out for heat treat, all hand work with sierra's hand stitches sheathwork.... $225.
 
Tony,

I know supply drives costs up. I know people will demand odd things. I was just wondering what people I trust could make this for.

There was this HUGE movement in paintball for kids to buy 'Rare' goggle straps. Yes, the straps that hold the goggle to your face. Kids were paying over 300 dollars for some of these.

Ofcourse, a year later they are worth nothing. I think in 10 years A Bear Grylls knife will be worth a lot less than 500 dollars. I just wanted to have the thought experiment and see what it is worth.

TF
 
I'm not a fan but it looks like they charge what the market will "bear" :D

Like Tony mentioned you're paying for the Bear Grylls name.
 
I would be hard pressed to pay near $200 for that. Probably closer to the $100 mark.
Its a nice knife, I have to give it that and the sheath looks pretty good too.

But with anything from a celeb you're buying it for the name.
Wasn't there some actress who sold a tissue she used for several thousand.
I'm going to guess that the tissue cost less than 1cent.
 
From what I've seen in the makers forums and in the fixed blades for sale section We have a lot of quality custpom makers who can do similar work for $150-$250.

Koyote's sheaths are every bit as good probably better.

I don't know much about that steel used. However I would prefer 5160 or 1095 anyway.

That all being said it does look like a fairly nice design.

I still believe I've got it beat with an RC4 at any rate.
 
As far as the sheath is concerned. The machine stitching is done without a channel cut first, the edges are not burnished not stained - I am not sure if it is sealed. For the price of this knife and sheath - these are details that must be taken into account.

If you look at the Ray Mears woodlore - the sheath is hand made, hand finished, burnished and looks great. The knife comes in a custom box and looks awesome. It is still outragiously priced as Brian Andrews makes a very similar knife for about 300 dollars less.

I just get frustrated when I see a mechanical knife that has a single bevel cut into it and a sheath that is not very custom being sold as HAND made and at a crazy price. I agree with Christof's pricing here - and I know I am getting something hand crafted in every step (besides heat treat) and I know the person that made it. And Sierra makes a HELL of a sheath.

TF
 
This is an odd one. I believe the knife is probably pretty good, but I do believe it is overpriced. Yet is it disproportionately overpriced compared to others, I'm not so sure.

The one bearing the Bear name seems a blatant rip off, but if you look at the Raven knife he sells [pretty much the same knife minus the Bear bit] it goes for £275. Compare that to the Fällkniven PHK that would cost me £256.95 here, and that's with a thermorun rubber handle. Rubber may well be a fantastic handle material but it is also dirt cheap.

Still, I see where you are coming from. I see a lot of knives here with a price tag that makes me think “you really are taking a liberty”. I'm not talking about custom knives that are also an art form in their own right, just users that are made from stuff that costs peanuts. In particular, a lot of 1095 offerings get away with that in a way that a stainless of a similar par tends not to. Amazing what mumbo jumbo and invoking the appeal to qualia can do for your bank account.

However, quite apart from avarice I do think there is another propulsion – Marketing! To some extent makers are locked in an arms race in which to make a pleb believe the knife is good it must be priced equal to or more expensive than its peers. That mechanism works, and the inverse. Indeed, how often have we seen the case put that a person doesn't own knife brand X simply because they cannot afford it. Often! Not that the knife is no good for cutting, but the knife must be good because it comes from perhaps the most overpriced factory around. And if you could afford it you'd have one too. Marketing! If only life was that simple. Dullards. If it just boiled down to price I'd already have a cocaine habit. Still, pricing plays marvelous tricks on the mind, and it's the easy way to go if you want to start a little bunch of cults[SP] following.
 
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baldtaco-II said:
This is an odd one. I believe the knife is probably pretty good, but I do believe it is overpriced. Yet is it disproportionately overpriced compared to others, I'm not so sure.

The one bearing the Bear name seems a blatant rip off, but if you look at the Raven knife he sells [pretty much the same knife minus the Bear bit] it goes for £275. Compare that to the Fällkniven PHK that would cost me £256.95 here, and that's with a thermorun rubber handle. Rubber may well be a fantastic handle material but it is also dirt cheap.

Still, I see where you are coming from. I see a lot of knives here with a price tag that makes me think “you really are taking a liberty”. I'm not talking about custom knives that are also an art form in their own right, just users that are made from stuff that costs peanuts. In particular, a lot of 1095 offerings get away with that in a way that a stainless of a similar par tends not to. Amazing what mumbo jumbo and invoking the appeal to qualia can do for your bank account.

However, quite apart from avarice I do think there is another propulsion – Marketing! To some extent makers are locked in an arms race in which to make a pleb believe the knife is good it must be priced equal to or more expensive than its peers. That mechanism works, and the inverse. Indeed, how often have we seen the case put that a person doesn't own knife brand X simply because they cannot afford it. Often! Not that the knife is no good for cutting, but the knife must be good because it comes from perhaps the most overpriced factory around. And if you could afford it you'd have one too. Marketing! If only life was that simple. Dullards. If it just boiled down to price I'd already have a cocaine habit. Still, pricing plays marvelous tricks on the mind, and it's the easy way to go if you want to start a little bunch of cults[SP] following.
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Alot of good points man! I think a similar comparasion would also be the Ontario RAT 3 knife vs the RAT Cutlery RC3. For basic purposes it is the same knife, materials (which aren't costly). Yet people want to pay 30-40 buxs more for a RC3.
 
11x11x said:
Alot of good points man! I think a similar comparasion would also be the Ontario RAT 3 knife vs the RAT Cutlery RC3. For basic purposes it is the same knife, materials (which aren't costly). Yet people want to pay 30-40 buxs more for a RC3.
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thats because with a genuine Rat you get customer service if you ever need it.
 
You could say the same about many of the knife makers out there but if people are prepared to buy it !!!

Is a Ray Mears Woodlore any better than a Brian Andrews Bushcraft.....IMO it is not even close but check out the price !!!!!!!
 
Bushman5 said:
thats because with a genuine Rat you get customer service if you ever need it.
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LOL, see it all boils down to many various factors when people make a choice about a purchase, be it knife, guns, cars, food, etc. To be philisophical, Why should I buy a $800 pig hunting rifle when my $89 mil-surp does the job just the same? Sometimes I am willing to pay over $20 for a new release DVD movie, but know that I can get other great DVDs for under $5, weird? Its just those various factors I mentioned above, be it subconscious or conscious. And there are guys selling stuff, willing to throw out a huge price tag, to see what people have money to burn.

But regarding the bear grylls knife, I'd rather spend the $520 on an entire outfit of gear, not a single blade.
 
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baldtaco-II said:
This is an odd one. I believe the knife is probably pretty good, but I do believe it is overpriced. Yet is it disproportionately overpriced compared to others, I'm not so sure.
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An interesting discussion.

The value on any knife is a hard thing to pin down.

Obviously, what a buyer will pay is the final determinate.

For me, I look for value in a knife; I want a knife to perform well and hold its value.

Many knives have similar designs and are made from similar material, but it’s the things you can’t see that add value to a knife in my eyes.

The quality of the heat treatment, and customer service, are paramount to me.

These are the things you can only learn from prolonged use of a knife.

I have learned through my experience that the way to be happy with a purchase is to buy a knife from a maker with a track record of exceptional blades and customer service.

If this means paying a premium, so be it; I know the value will be there.

Does this mean not buying blades from unknown makers, no, but buy knowing that you will have to make you own judgment as to the ultimate value of the knife.

There are many fine custom makers here on the forum, and we can learn from each other on the quality of their products, the bottom line is that any knife is only as good as it’s maker.




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike
 
since when are knives priced for what the sum of materials are worth?

knives are priced for what the market will sustain. if they can get 500 why not sell them for 500.

RWL 34 is a great steel, I have used it a fair amount and would put it above cm154 or ats 34 anyday but I wouldn't charge 500 for a knife like that unless I could get Bear to sign it and some one was willing to by it for 500,

do you really think a Strider ,Busse, Chris Reeves , heck even some higher end Spyderco's cost what they charge to make. what is a fair price for them?

BEars name is extremely reconized, I bet the average Joe of the street would gladly spend more for a knife endorsted by him than one made by some guy Name Gerry Bussomething or other, or Mick and Dwaune who..

What it all boil down to is what Mr. Taco touched on is marketing, it is really what drives the trends in the knife world, do you really think guys carry folders inches bigger than most decent fix blades because they need them,or spend thousands on a user grade knife becaus it is that much better ... really heck i know of guys willing to spend 150 bucks on a knife with Dale Enharts name on it thats not worth 10 bucks.


BTW , I hate Bear Bashing, The guy has a decent show and has introduced many people to the world of survial skills, it is not made for guys like us with libaries of fact it is a TV show for entertainment, get over it..



cya

jimi
 
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Being willing to pay for a product does not make the product proper or ethically supported by the market. The market can sustain high prices for quality cocaine and hitmen - it does not mean we should sell them at all or at an increased price.

However, it seems many are arguing against my conception of 'worth'. I may not have defined it as I see it.

I do not think that the price of a piece can solely determined by the sum of its components. Koyote, Stomper, Koster, Brian, and many others have less than 40 dollars into their components. It is the expertise of assembling those components that matter most. I was posting those prices to get an idea of a base price.

Beyond that, as Mike mentioned service from the maker and other things can add work. I don't think those can be seen as a 'premium' - I think those simply can be added into 'worth'.

I know that most 'upgrades' on gear is because perceived obsolescence not real obsolescence.

Here, I guess is my rub. A knife that is meant for bushcraft and survival, in my assumption and opinion, should get its worth from its telos (greek for purpose). If it works better for the bushcraft - it should be worth more than something that works less for performing the tasks of bushcraft. Bear's knife does not work any better than many other knives sold on this board made by quality makers in similar materials.

However, it appears I have gone wrong in defining worth by what tasks it can accomplish. I suppose many find worth in owning something that Bear Grylls has endorsed and another maker (who may or may not have ever met Bear) has lazer engraved his name upon. The 'telos' of their tool then is not to work in bushcraft (perhaps at all - but certainly no solely) it is a collection item.

I do not think the market should simply gain the most amount of money in the smallest amount of time. I think our economy is in our position that it is because many sectors (banks, car makers, AIG, and others) have confused the purpose of the economy.

I suppose if people are willing to pay 200 dollars for an engraving on a knife blade and a stamp on a piece of leather they can. I don't think they should.

I think Bear will matter little in 10 years wheras others like Mors, Les, and even Ray Mears will matter more. Because of this, the collectability of their blade will matter far more than Bear's stuff. However, I don't think any of their knives will cut 300 dollars better than a Stomper, BRKT, Breeden, Kosters, and may others.

I guess this is why I bring it up.

TF
 
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