Knife Maker with non-delivered wait times and constant delays

[Undefeatable]

I have seen a few threads in my time on here, and recently the thread on Yuna (btw, would love one of his knives so not a knock on him)

My question to you guys, at what point would you consider it "theft"?

If i was on a wait list and told it would be 1 year before the knife would be built, and 1 year turned into 2 or 3 without any correspondence or updates. I personally would consider that theft, as you took my money and have not delivered me anything in the time agreed on.

Im curious to see what you guys would consider acceptable and not, and what you call it when a knife maker does not deliver or correspond with his customers.

 

[cigarrodog]

I learned my lesson a long time ago. The only way I would pay up front is through Goods&Services. I won't wait past the time that I can get my funds back. Currently, that's 180 days(PayPal). If a knifemaker who wants their money up front, and quotes a longer wait, is not someone that I will transact with. There's plenty of other knives. If a knifemaker doesn't demand money up front, then I'll be Mr. Patience. In my mind, whether you consider it theft or maker's unforeseen circumstances, the result is the same. Bad feelings.

 

[Comeuppance]

There seem to be a lot of apologists for makers who miss their own deadlines and estimates. While I understand that people often underestimate the time they will need to accomplish something (I'm very bad at this myself) it is also very frustrating as a customer and leads to feeling tricked or lied to - even if that was not the intention. We're still talking about long waits, large amounts of money, and generally long gaps in communication. Tensions run high and understandable delays go without explanation. It would be maddening!

I had a similar issue with Will Moon some years ago. I had purchased a MK6 under the agreement that he would re-anodize the knife to a sunset gold (it was blue).

After six months of him holding on to my $1200-1400 (it's been a while, I forget) and ENDLESS missed delivery estimates (seriously like eight in a row spanning five months) he delivers the knife... Without having re-anodized it, the blade is off-center, has the pivot action of a Gerber Paraframe that has been left in mud for years, and has blade play in every direction. I was less than pleased.

I feel like the real solution here is to just not give time estimates and not take payment up front.

 

[jftman]

Will's present stand.
No Custom orders.
Not sure but is he still posting monthly sales?
I have been interested in hearing from him about my knife.

I get a maker has to have policy and make his policy kniwn.
I get he is alone, has family and is/was going into Physics and engineering.
But if he is still doing business,
Sure a guy deserves a beak but he would be sure to be on top of customer service.
Even if a wife or son replied initially.

I agree a maker opens and closes his book based on his ABILITY to finish and deliver.
Sometimes people instead of leaving bad feedback will leave none.
Private deals like here or ebay.
But in business brings with a greater responsibility.
To communicate.

 

[Sosa]

If someone demands payment upfront and has long wait times it doesnt sound like they are putting out the products they should be.

 

[knife chop]

Koster knives would be the perfect example.

 

[craytab]

I learned my lesson a long time ago. The only way I would pay up front is through Goods&Services. I won't wait past the time that I can get my funds back. Currently, that's 180 days(PayPal). If a knifemaker who wants their money up front, and quotes a longer wait, is not someone that I will transact with. There's plenty of other knives. If a knifemaker doesn't demand money up front, then I'll be Mr. Patience. In my mind, whether you consider it theft or maker's unforeseen circumstances, the result is the same. Bad feelings.

This^ is the only way to truly protect yourself. If you aren't out any money it may suck to wait but what else can you do?

 

[Gastonknife]

The best way to not end up in this situation is NEVER pay up front......esp if maker has a long wait. It may be ok if you are asking for some special material, or a personal design.....for the maker to ask for some % for materials. Other than that, I know of no legit maker who makes people pay up front. Been collecting for 30 years and never had one ask for complete payment prior to it being done.

 

[wazu013]

I don't have any experience with custom knife makers but I do have life experience. I can't imagine paying more than a nominal deposit up front for something I won't see for a year or two.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

If you don't pay up front the only problem you can have is never getting a knife you desired. You won't be out any money. I have had 2 problems with knife makers and I paid up front on both. I should have learned from the 1st, but I had done business with the 2nd and felt confident I could trust him. There will be no 3rd. Unfortunately good knife makers are not always good businessmen. Many over promise and don't meet their deadlines. Your choices are accept this, research out the ones who do, or stay away from custom makers.

 

[Marko3]

Yes word to the wise is don't pay money up front . I have been taken before and received a rushed unfinished blade . I am sure there are plenty that can pull this off . We rarely hear these stories . Mostly it's the long waits and no updates . At one time I would take a $50 deposit because I felt people needed to be invested in the project . That's ok but I don't take orders now just make a few a month when I have time and that's . I just got a custom knife from Finland that I ordered and that came as promised with no money down no drama .. Very refreshing .

 

[sheathmaker]

I don't make knives......I only make leather sheaths but this is what I do and it has worked perfectly for about 12 years now, in my "just sheaths" production.

*I will accept your order by email or phone. I require your mailing address and phone number, and email address with the order.

*I will require your knife/knives in my shop in order to design and properly fit the sheath

*I never require and will not accept any amount of payment in advance

*My normal turn around is 48 hours or less from receipt of your knife (If something happens to change the turn around
I phone AND email you immediately with revised estimate and get your agreement)

*Using priority mail both ways, your knife will generally only be out of your hands one week, notwithstanding holidays
and week ends

*There will be an invoice in the box when the knife and sheath is returned to you. When you receive it and are
satisfied,....THEN you pay me.

I certainly realize it takes a lot longer to make a knife, but I'm committed to customer first and me and my problems, if any, second. I'm 83 now and too old to change, but this method of doing businees has worked for me nearly all my life.

Best Regards,

Paul

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I learned my lesson a long time ago. The only way I would pay up front is through Goods&Services. I won't wait past the time that I can get my funds back. Currently, that's 180 days(PayPal). If a knifemaker who wants their money up front, and quotes a longer wait, is not someone that I will transact with. There's plenty of other knives. If a knifemaker doesn't demand money up front, then I'll be Mr. Patience. In my mind, whether you consider it theft or maker's unforeseen circumstances, the result is the same. Bad feelings.

The best way to not end up in this situation is NEVER pay up front......esp if maker has a long wait. It may be ok if you are asking for some special material, or a personal design.....for the maker to ask for some % for materials. Other than that, I know of no legit maker who makes people pay up front. Been collecting for 30 years and never had one ask for complete payment prior to it being done.

This question comes up regularly. The best advice matches what these gentlemen say. Even knifemakers themselves get frustrated, locked into orders they can't get to, at prices that may no longer be realistic. These makers close their books, make knives that suit their interests or challenge their craftsmanship. And list them for sale when they are ready.

Once you've bought into a knife that won't be ready soon, from a maker who doesn't communicate well, you can only hope he is honest and is clearing up the backlog.

 

[Pittknife]

I make custom knives and spent a lot of time coming up with my sales policy. I don't take payment up front and I don't have books. I make one custom order through a lotto that is posted at the end of my current order.

I did this because I opened my books for a week and was at 700+ orders.... I make 1 knife every 2 weeks... And people were willing to pay me whatever I wanted up front and wait "as long as it takes."

I see why other makers get in trouble, they see the money and it's hard for them to turn down. They think they can make the knives and overpromise. They never put in buffet time for delays, and worst they start to lie about it. This leads into my biggest gripe is that when they miss their dates and the customer complains all their fanboys come out and stand up for them. That's complete bull$#it. Act like a man refund the money, apologize and don't have people jump in for your mistakes.

The day the maker missed the delivery date is the same day the customer has a right to complain and ask for compensation, period.

My knives are very expensive and a part of the deal when a customer pays me thousands of dollars of their hard earned money is that I keep to the agreement. Doesn't matter if I'm sick, got kidnapped by ufo, or fake adopt a kid.

There are so many great and legitamate makers out there, just do research before hand and don't buy from the ones in gbu. If you do, that's on you.

 

[gonebad395]

I make custom knives and spent a lot of time coming up with my sales policy. I don't take payment up front and I don't have books. I make one custom order through a lotto that is posted at the end of my current order.

I did this because I opened my books for a week and was at 700+ orders.... I make 1 knife every 2 weeks... And people were willing to pay me whatever I wanted up front and wait "as long as it takes."

I see why other makers get in trouble, they see the money and it's hard for them to turn down. They think they can make the knives and overpromise. They never put in buffet time for delays, and worst they start to lie about it. This leads into my biggest gripe is that when they miss their dates and the customer complains all their fanboys come out and stand up for them. That's complete bull$#it. Act like a man refund the money, apologize and don't have people jump in for your mistakes.

The day the maker missed the delivery date is the same day the customer has a right to complain and ask for compensation, period.

My knives are very expensive and a part of the deal when a customer pays me thousands of dollars of their hard earned money is that I keep to the agreement. Doesn't matter if I'm sick, got kidnapped by ufo, or fake adopt a kid.

There are so many great and legitamate makers out there, just do research before hand and don't buy from the ones in gbu. If you do, that's on you.

So your a maker with a sortta free window for self promotion due to said thread but only a gold member ? Doesn't seem fair to the paying knife makers here. Kinda like your sig I make custom knives so do the paying knife makers at a higher rate to promote their wares

 

[Scurvy092]

No pay upfront, no problems.

This has been going on forever.

 

[Pittknife]

So your a maker with a sortta free window for self promotion due to said thread but only a gold member ? Doesn't seem fair to the paying knife makers here. Kinda like your sig I make custom knives so do the paying knife makers at a higher rate to promote their wares

I don't sale knives on here and have a gold membership for a longtime. Actually, I asked the mods if they wanted me to upgrade and they said it was fine and that I don't need to. There are a lot of makers on here without even a gold membership so I don't know where you are coming from.

I don't need to promote my wares because I don't sale knives on here, I post as a memeber.

 

[gonebad395]

I don't sale knives on here and have a gold membership for a longtime. Actually, I asked the mods if they wanted me to upgrade and they said it was fine and that I don't need to. There are a lot of makers on here without even a gold membership so I don't know where you are coming from.

I don't need to promote my wares because I don't sale knives on here, I post as a memeber.

I have buddies here that pay the makers price and your above explanation sounds like a soft sales thread and your sig I make custom knives I'm sure has gotten interest even if not intentional just saying

 

[Pittknife]

I have buddies here that pay the makers price and your above explanation sounds like a soft sales thread and your sig I make custom knives I'm sure has gotten interest even if not intentional just saying

Again, the makers subscription is for those that sale knives on here. I spend most my time in the knife among section discussing knife making.

My books have been closed for a while, I don't sale knives so you can think whatever you want. I posted my view as a knifemaker, how you can construed that as a sales thread when I don't accept orders anymore is on you.

 

[cigarrodog]

Mike doesn't need to sell any knifes here. His integrity is beyond reproach. His knives sell quicker than he can make them. He's here because of his passion. The fact that he asked the Mods if he should upgrade speaks to his honesty.