Knife Maker with non-delivered wait times and constant delays

There are quite a lot of knifemakers on here with a REGISTERED membership only. THey openly discuss how to make knives, what style is best for them, what steel they use, lock types and offer a lot of help in terms of the community. THey feed the machine as it were with knowledge, as well as mistakes. I've known MIke informally for a good while now and he has never once tried to skirt the membership rules. If and when he decides to sell his pieces here, he can and will once he upgrades. He has not disrupted the status quo once.
Mike is not the topic of the thread, it's makers that do not deliver according to their own time frames. It happens, life gets in teh way, they get overwhelmed, and many other things can happen.
 
Anyone seen an update on the Grimsmo Rask? It has been almost a year with no updates...John and Eric are really pushing it on this one.

It was originally going to be 6-8 months and we are up to 12 now. Before everyone jumps on the dog pile, I have e-mailed them both, with no response, and see quite a few youtube vids but none regarding the Rask delivery. They are proud of their new CNC machinery but don't seem to worry about delivery :thumbdn:
 
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Another thing about Mike.......if there is a thread started about a thieving maker he will chime in and do what he can to help.........every time!
Never saw him try to sell anything either.
Joe
 
Undefeatable said:
I have seen a few threads in my time on here, and recently the thread on Yuna (btw, would love one of his knives so not a knock on him)

My question to you guys, at what point would you consider it "theft"?

If i was on a wait list and told it would be 1 year before the knife would be built, and 1 year turned into 2 or 3 without any correspondence or updates. I personally would consider that theft, as you took my money and have not delivered me anything in the time agreed on.

Im curious to see what you guys would consider acceptable and not, and what you call it when a knife maker does not deliver or correspond with his customers.
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I made the very poor mistake of paying a well-known maker upfront for four knives (this was a large amount). He promised to have all four done within a few months with the first done within 30 days of my payment. He has lied time and time again about starting on the knives and delivery time, all while sending knives to dealers, etc. I finally got two of the four knives after a year. He now won't tell me when he will make the remaining two. I will be posting a warning thread soon and will be exploring my legal options. I have learned the hard way - never. never never pay in full upfront.
 
Undefeatable said:
I have seen a few threads in my time on here, and recently the thread on Yuna (btw, would love one of his knives so not a knock on him)

My question to you guys, at what point would you consider it "theft"?

If i was on a wait list and told it would be 1 year before the knife would be built, and 1 year turned into 2 or 3 without any correspondence or updates. I personally would consider that theft, as you took my money and have not delivered me anything in the time agreed on.

Im curious to see what you guys would consider acceptable and not, and what you call it when a knife maker does not deliver or correspond with his customers.
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IIRC from when I've been ripped of, when you pay in advance and there is no delivery, it's not legally theft, but fraud. This is per my local cops. It's a lot harder to prosecute fraud than theft since you must prove intent. The best way is to find a group of people who were all ripped off by failure to deliver, then you have enough information to prove intent. For this type of prosecution, you will need the assistance of both local law enforcement and other's the maker has "ripped off."
 
I got burned by a fellow for not doing my homework and being too trusting. Although I got the knife, the process of being lied to, ignored, waiting, made to feel like an ass, and hoping that the person doesn't screw you when they already have your money is zero fun. I am almost glad that it happened because I learned a valuable lesson and wouldn't pay Jesus upfront for a knife if he swore on a stack of bibles on a time frame.

Respect yourself and the hobby enough to not be made to look like an idiot. That said, I don't mind paying a bit for materials if a smaller maker has been working with me to get me exactly what I want, but ALWAYS PAY GOODS AND SERVICES
 
So, the question here borders on philosophy with an undertone of legal.

My stand is fairly simple (even though I dont follow my own creed) "Caveat Emptor"

However, I should say that for anyone taking your money for something to be created, I think its in their best interest to 1) have an agreement that outlines what will happen in the event of a prolonged period, perhaps unseen, that can affect original delivery window and 2) at a certain point, with no communication, you have to assume its theft. At the least its breach of contract.

Above is what fits into our personal philosophy with the legal undertone. Then "intent" comes into play. And that is where the legal argument can be tricky. If you handed them money without a certain ETA, its hard to improve that their intent has been to take your money without holding up their end of the contract/agreement. If taken to court, they could always say, [sic] "Look, we ran into issues that caused serious delays, we/I have no intention of depriving him of his $" and may also add that they are still producing what you paid for, already purchased the materials for it, etc.

Anyone who wants to be successful shouldnt be ignoring you. Especially not something cutom made. Id be ripping mad. I'd spend the money to sue them in their own state just to make a point. They have woes? Great, so do I. And I'll make it out there to show the claims court every piece of financial information I could get to make the case that the loss of the money has set me back. I could even say, for example, that this was going to be the premiere piece to launch my efforts as a high-end knife dealer; a new venture for me. And the defendant has made that infinitely more difficult by breaching the contract. You get my point. Since youve waited this long I think its time to move onto the next step. Who knows, maybe it was miscommunication combined with a few terrible circumstances. And maybe your blade is waiting. Or maybe they will just refund you.
 
I have no problem paying a deposit or buying the materials up front . I'm not going to pay full price for a knife that is only a thought .

Same time maker shouldn't haft to buy materials for a knife that hasn't been paid for and may be difficult to sale depending on how much it's customized to me .

As long as the maker keeps in contact with me it's good . Same time I'm not going to keep at a maker and make him feel like he has to rush through my order or him het so annoyed at me he just doesn't care .

Stuff happens ,as long as the maker updates me every now and again all is well.

As a customer it's been my expierence just let them do what they do best . When you start to rush someone or constantly ask for updates you can get on their nerves
 
I ordered a leather holster from a maker I found on youtube. Glowing reviews and looked to be quality work and materials. Lifetime warranty, anything goes wrong send it back I'll take care of it. 7 week wait, pay upfront. Not a "custom order" he has 4 basic styles and that's it.

So, I pay through paypal. Never get confirmation he received my money so I wait a week and email. No response. So I wait a week and email again. No response. So I wait till the 7 weeks is over and I ask "Hey, I hope my holster is ready or at least in line. No response. So a couple of more weeks. "What's up?" No response. 14 weeks "hey if I don't hear from you by Monday I'm gonna have to go through Paypal and get my money back". No response.

So, I file a request for refund through paypal. It's about a 3 week time frame before you can get your money. Have to wait for seller to respond back and all. Never did respond to paypal either. So after 17 weeks I finally get my money. 3 weeks later the guy finally emails me. "Hey, sorry about the wait. I was just going to ship your order out but I noticed that you had requested a refund. Send the money and I'll ship it out ASAP". Yea. Right.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not withstanding, how much is a "Warranty" worth if you were to have a problem and you can't get in touch with the maker?

As Paypal says. And most anybody here with any sense. A little communication goes a long way's . And I really did want that holster.
 
sirupatespecial said:
I ordered a leather holster from a maker I found on youtube. Glowing reviews and looked to be quality work and materials. Lifetime warranty, anything goes wrong send it back I'll take care of it. 7 week wait, pay upfront. Not a "custom order" he has 4 basic styles and that's it.

So, I pay through paypal. Never get confirmation he received my money so I wait a week and email. No response. So I wait a week and email again. No response. So I wait till the 7 weeks is over and I ask "Hey, I hope my holster is ready or at least in line. No response. So a couple of more weeks. "What's up?" No response. 14 weeks "hey if I don't hear from you by Monday I'm gonna have to go through Paypal and get my money back". No response.

So, I file a request for refund through paypal. It's about a 3 week time frame before you can get your money. Have to wait for seller to respond back and all. Never did respond to paypal either. So after 17 weeks I finally get my money. 3 weeks later the guy finally emails me. "Hey, sorry about the wait. I was just going to ship your order out but I noticed that you had requested a refund. Send the money and I'll ship it out ASAP". Yea. Right.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not withstanding, how much is a "Warranty" worth if you were to have a problem and you can't get in touch with the maker?

As Paypal says. And most anybody here with any sense. A little communication goes a long way's . And I really did want that holster.
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Yea the old ,I was just about to ship it line . If that were true then a couple of emails from the maker could of saved a huge mess. Some people are like that . You can't get ahold of them for anything ever but they do what they say.
 
@ comeuppance I had the same experience with Will Moon. He quoted a 2 week turn around on some work on my mark 6. It ended up taking 6 months to get it back and he never bothered to let me know what was going on. To make it worse when I finally got it back he hadn't done the work and the knife was filthy. Too bad I really loved his knives.
 
brownshoe said:
IIRC from when I've been ripped of, when you pay in advance and there is no delivery, it's not legally theft, but fraud. This is per my local cops. It's a lot harder to prosecute fraud than theft since you must prove intent. The best way is to find a group of people who were all ripped off by failure to deliver, then you have enough information to prove intent. For this type of prosecution, you will need the assistance of both local law enforcement and other's the maker has "ripped off."
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Actually, almost all of these types of situations are going to be civil in nature, not criminal. And the person out the money is going to have much more success through civil court than they would in criminal court......if they can get law enforcement to do anything at all. You would have to prove intent to defraud from before the deal was made to have a criminal case.
 
I used to charge 35% when I first started making because people seemed to want them but I was too small to foot the cost of materials and heat treat. So the 35% would cover that, then when the knife was ready to go and looks good to their standards I sent for the remainder and mail the knife. Only had one issue, the guy stopped liking the design, but I refunded him the 35% within 5 minutes of his request. Easy peasy, it's just a bit of money instead of the entire chunk. Which is where I see bigger makers get in trouble, once they have to refund a full $600-1,000+ when it's probably already spent. It's just a harder hit. Now, thankfully, I can afford the slight investment of materials, abrasives, and fab shops so I sell things as they come available. It's a shame bigger named makers are ruining the entire "don't pay up front" deal because I feel a good number of beginners may need some sort of initial payment unless they're a part timer or hobbyist. At the time I didn't have another means of income, and still don't... so to have materials and other things paid for beforehand really helped. It also helped, me personally, keep the build times fast because I wanted my actual pay that comes with finishing the knife. The money that goes straight to bills lol.

I definitely don't support paying in full up front... but a smallish down payment makes sense to me at least until the maker is established enough to handle all the overhead by himself. Especially if he's making a blade for someone who doesn't even plan on paying once the blade is done.
 
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