Knife or Death

[Casinostocks]

Production knives are not allowed, but some modifications and voila!

As an avid student of CPK and an understudy to Mr. B^2 the Curator, I can vouch that the WBC is indeed the only one currently in existence with edgecut micarta handle scales and a stabby swedge, plus its zombified acid etched finish!

 

[Jo the Machinist]

Forgers, smiths, martial artists, competitive choppers were all welcomed and encouraged to participate, IIRC.

Perhaps they'll add jugglers to the mix for S2. If so, I'm all in

But when did you hear? After casting or before? And I know some folks who shied away because they wanted to see what was going on before committing. I imagine they will have a lot more applications this time around.

 

[Casinostocks]

But when did you hear? After casting or before? And I know some folks who shied away because they wanted to see what was going on before committing. I imagine they will have a lot more applications this time around.

I read that in your aftermath post

 

[Jo the Machinist]

I read that in your aftermath post

LMAO

 

[bluemax_1]

By the same token, those katanas have been a disaster. There is no reason for them to fail, except for very poor quality. Swords should never fold like wet noodles.

n2s

Crappy katana quality aside (I still get a kick out of the 1st episode's, "Authentic Japanese shinken... Made In China"... with the wobbly handle), and last night's katana of unknown origin, a traditionally forged katana simply isn't a great design for this.

Unlike spring tempered swords, the katana's narrow, differentially hardened blade doesn't have a whole lot of tolerance for lateral bending. A little too much, and it bends permanently.

I mentioned earlier in the thread, that I've actually seen a pristine authentic NBTHK rated antique katana take a permanent bend, simply from practice cutting on a thick tatami roll. The owner had more money than skill.

If you've ever seen slow-mo footage of a sword cut, you'll see that ANY flaw in edge angle when cutting with a long sword, causes significant lateral loads, and flex. Have enough practice/experience with sword cutting, and your eyes can see it in real time.

The amount of lateral flex induced with a bad cut, depends on the power of the swing, and the density of the target and how much it decelerates the sword on contact, and how bad the edge angle is.

The reason the ice blocks did the most damage to the katanas is because ice doesn't cut. It chips. Even if you made a good sword cut, with decent edge engle, the ice chips, deflects the sword, then the sword stops.

The very nature of what's happening inevitably produces high lateral loads/flex, and the katana simply don't do well with that. If I had to use a katana for that, I'd have used light overhead chops, straight down, to minimize that (and I was impressed that cowboy Jo used a similar minimalist, light chop approach).

You've seen Nathan's test vids where he clamps an LC in a vise and slides a pipe over the handle to bend it, and see how far it bends, and still comes back to true, or even if it would break. You DON'T ever want to do that with a katana. Even an authentic, properly forged one.

That's why I said that despite having experience and training with a katana, I'd never pick one for a contest where I might potentially be chopping anything other than tatami, or meat (with the possible exceptions of a Howard Clark bainite katana, or maybe a Walter Sorrells, but neither one is exactly traditional).

 

[Casinostocks]

P.S. some of those martial artists are really looong in the tooth. It's like me calling myself a Marathon runner because I ran a few 1/2 Marathons when I was about 25, which was almost 30 years ago

 

[Casinostocks]

Would luv to see Nathan doing this show!

OK, hear me out:

From his photos I've seen so far he doesn't look like the all stacked up physical specimen loaded with brute power, but he seems very intelligent and he absolutely knows his knives and their edges. To me this competition is akin to the classic tortoise vs hare story. I'm not saying that Nathan is a tortoise (LOL) but those who have rushed through the course seem to make mistakes and have misjudged the cutting angles and the ideal cutting zones, this being so abundantly apparent in case of attempting the one-cut fish!

After having watched 3 episodes, I can now clearly see that our champ Jo had both height disadvantage plus being the very first to run that course when filmed (although they edited and presented Ep 1 differently). I'd say go for it Nathan because there's no friggin way that your blades are going to flex, bend, roll or dull significantly on that kinda course. I'd also like to nominate CPK-Mark as a sub

 

[bluemax_1]

BTW, out of curiosity, how big is Dan Keffeler? He's definitely a stocky individual, but it's impossible to tell from the videos, if he's a stocky 5'9" or 6'3".

P.S. had to admire James Clifton's perseverance, despite the audible breathing issues.

 

[Fonedork]

Honestly a sling blade would destroy that show, the bannaner hook would smash the ice like nobody's business. Since there's no real dimensional limits like in BSI I can't imagine why everyone wouldn't benefit from slapping a big thick weight shifting spike or hook on the end of their blades. Specifically for crushing ice.

Edit: Here's an anonymous rendition of a no rules WMD tip concept

 

[Casinostocks]

BTW, out of curiosity, how big is Dan Keffeler? He's definitely a stocky individual, but it's impossible to tell from the videos, if he's a stocky 5'9" or 6'3".

P.S. had to admire James Clifton's perseverance, despite the audible breathing issues.

Nathan stated being 5'10" and if you've seen Dr. Dan and Nathan photographed together, Dan may have an inch or so over Nathan. I'd wager about 6' max but he does look much bigger.

 

[Grenock]

Jo, were there rules as to how objects had to be struck?

I would damn sure use the spine of the blade to bust the block of ice if it was allowed. To me, it is all part of the blade, so it should be usable steel in my opinion, same with the pommel.

 

[not2sharp]

This might work:

Then again, if you are willing to dress like an orc.....

n2s

 

[bluemax_1]

P.S. some of those martial artists are really looong in the tooth. It's like me calling myself a Marathon runner because I ran a few 1/2 Marathons when I was about 25, which was almost 30 years ago

Lol.

Granted, there aren't too many swordsman experienced in battle with a sword these days, but when I see shows like this, I'll admit I tend to lump many of the martial artists in the 'for show' category.

Having trained in various martial arts since the age of 4, I differentiate between the function/combat focused martial artists, vs the form oriented (eg. backflips and baton twirling a katana). The vast majority of the time, the participants seem to be more of the 'form-oriented' variety.

Simply watching their cutting form/technique is revealing (especially when they get tired, or have to make cuts that don't fall in the 3-4 general ones they've practiced).

There's a beauty in the movements of function oriented efficiency, visible in the participants of this show with a lot of experience actually chopping hard targets, vs the 'martial artists', whose main experience is in practicing maintaining the appearance of form, while cutting air.

It's the same difference seen in martial arts forms champions who've trained for years to punch and kick air, vs martial artists who've spent the same time slamming their fists, elbows, shins and knees into heavy bags and heavy opponents. There's a fundamental difference in the way they move.

I'm not saying that ALL the martial artists who compete in forms competitions aren't really capable fighters/practical martial artists, but many are. Eg. when I was doing Chinese Wushu sanshou, there was a distinct difference between the forms competitors vs the sanshou competitors.

It's why I like watching videos of people like Dan Keffeler (or Cliff Stamp) chopping. Their experience in chopping is obvious, especially compared to the abundance of YouTube knife reviewers who whale away at logs and wood with hilariously crappy aim, poor blade angles and crappy technique in general (or worse, review blades by swinging only at plastic bottles).

 

[Jo the Machinist]

I think Dan is pretty close to Nathan's height. James is an incredible guy. Made of some really great stuff!

BTW, out of curiosity, how big is Dan Keffeler? He's definitely a stocky individual, but it's impossible to tell from the videos, if he's a stocky 5'9" or 6'3".

P.S. had to admire James Clifton's perseverance, despite the audible breathing issues.

 

[Jo the Machinist]

Jo, were there rules as to how objects had to be struck?

I would damn sure use the spine of the blade to bust the block of ice if it was allowed. To me, it is all part of the blade, so it should be usable steel in my opinion, same with the pommel.

As to rules for how they had to be struck, no one I was with asked the question and it never occurred to me.

 

[Jo the Machinist]

Lol.

Granted, there aren't too many swordsman experienced in battle with a sword these days, but when I see shows like this, I'll admit I tend to lump many of the martial artists in the 'for show' category.

Having trained in various martial arts since the age of 4, I differentiate between the function/combat focused martial artists, vs the form oriented (eg. backflips and baton twirling a katana). The vast majority of the time, the participants seem to be more of the 'form-oriented' variety.

Simply watching their cutting form/technique is revealing (especially when they get tired, or have to make cuts that don't fall in the 3-4 general ones they've practiced).

There's a beauty in the movements of function oriented efficiency, visible in the participants of this show with a lot of experience actually chopping hard targets, vs the 'martial artists', whose main experience is in practicing maintaining the appearance of form, while cutting air.

It's the same difference seen in martial arts forms champions who've trained for years to punch and kick air, vs martial artists who've spent the same time slamming their fists, elbows, shins and knees into heavy bags and heavy opponents. There's a fundamental difference in the way they move.

I'm not saying that ALL the martial artists who compete in forms competitions aren't really capable fighters/practical martial artists, but many are. Eg. when I was doing Chinese Wushu sanshou, there was a distinct difference between the forms competitors vs the sanshou competitors.

It's why I like watching videos of people like Dan Keffeler (or Cliff Stamp) chopping. Their experience in chopping is obvious, especially compared to the abundance of YouTube knife reviewers who whale away at logs and wood with hilariously crappy aim, poor blade angles and crappy technique in general (or worse, review blades by swinging only at plastic bottles).

There were a few people I met that had only practiced forms but had not cut anything.

 

[Grenock]

As to rules for how they had to be struck, no one I was with asked the question and it never occurred to me.

Then I would use every surface, edge and area I could on the knife. For instance, your episode. You could break the dowels in the first section with the spine. We already determined the ice could be broken down that way. I also think the black bucket actually shattered rather than cut for a few people, would have whacked that with the spine two if I thought it was going to be brittle.

I would add a big striking pommel to a knife built specifically for this contest as well for the above reasons and a false edge to at least a portion of the spine to get a focused impact without rolling an edge. This should be looked at as a cutting/chopping/bashing/smashing contest and the tool should be purpose built for the same.

 

[UffDa]

By the same token, those katanas have been a disaster. There is no reason for them to fail, except for very poor quality. Swords should never fold like wet noodles.

n2s

I believe that a comment was made last night about that. Japanese swords were/are not designed for that kind of abuse. They are made for cutting softer things like people. Perhaps if one was made out of a modern steel like 5160 or S7 they might hold up better.

I am not an expert and I don't play one on TV.

 

[Casinostocks]

I believe that a comment was made last night about that. Japanese swords were/are not designed for that kind of abuse. They are made for cutting softer things like people. Perhaps if one was made out of a modern steel like 5160 or S7 they might hold up better.

I am not an expert and I don't play one on TV.

But even when used in battles, soldiers wore some form of body armor. Granted that even a real Japanese Katana is not mean to be as tough asNed Stark's sword, aka Ice, but by the same token they ought not be that soft either.

 

[bluemax_1]

But even when used in battles, soldiers wore some form of body armor. Granted that even a real Japanese Katana is not mean to be as tough asNed Stark's sword, aka Ice, but by the same token they ought not be that soft either.

Katana (and the earlier Tachi) were not the primary weapon, i.e. kind of like the pistols sidearms for our military, vs the M4 primary small arm.

Bows were the first line, spears and halberds, the primary hand to hand. The katana was only used if the others were lost/expended/broken.

Even then, a fair number of katana would still be broken in battle.

No, they weren't particularly flimsy, but chopping ice is still different from chopping a person in Japanese lamellar armour (or Mongolians in leather armour).

I've seen a couple of demos where an antique katana was used in a cutting demo on period accurate Japanese armor with a kesa giri (cut aimed from neck to opposite side armpit). Definitely deadly, with no significant sword damage.

Also seen kabuto wari (helmet cutting) performed using an authentic antique katana and an actual antique helmet. The skill to attempt that is critical, as any error in blade angle and accuracy would likely result in a glancing blow, and quite possibly, a bent sword.