knife snobbery?

[wolfdad]

All of you are so wrong. Only I am right-it's not an opinion, it's a fact. It's all about me me me me ME ME ME ME ME!! Now close the thread-nothing else needs to be said.

 

[killgar]

Semantics


Hmm, very fine distinction between "I disagree with your opinion" and "your opinion is wrong". Opinions(or beliefs) can be wrong or right, in other opinions(or beliefs)...


One can believe in many things, and just because someone states you are wrong, doesn't make it a fact either.


Me thinks, posting on the public forum and having your post questioned is a given.

WOW! You certainly put a lot of work into that post Gator97. I mean, you actually dissected my post by individual sentences. I've never put so much effort into responding to a post in my life. I don't know wether I should be flattered, or be concerned for your mental health.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? You're not taking all this seriously are you? I hope not. After all, there's nothing important being discussed here. It's only Bladeforums.

Of course, if you're just amusing yourself with this like I am, and recognize that it's all just silliness, then I fully understand. If that's the case, disregard my "mental health" crack.

 

[killgar]

All of you are so wrong. Only I am right-it's not an opinion, it's a fact. It's all about me me me me ME ME ME ME ME!! Now close the thread-nothing else needs to be said.

Ok, you've convinced me. Wait a minute, no you haven't. I'm right. No you're wrong. No, I'm wrong. No you're right. Wait, how can you be right if I'm right? I think it's going to take a few more pages before I'm convinced.

Besides, I think if this thread reaches ten pages, that it qualifies for the BLADEFORUMS POINTLESS ARGUMENT HALL OF FAME.

I like your style Wolfdad.

 

[killgar]

You sound like you are confused to me.

There are facts and then there are opinions.

#3 as in It does everything that you need it to do and it does it well is an opinion... YOUR Opinion alone based on what is anyone's guess and that has nothing to do with quality at all. That's also not performance because nobody knows what you are basing that on or comparing it to.

So based on what you are saying a Buck 110 or a even a $10 gas station knife could be considered high quality if you say so compared to something like a Chris Reeve Sebenza.... Really?

Then you get upset when someone disagrees with you?

As an added note:

Does what you need it to do could be anything from a $2 throw away to a $6,000 Custom Art knife so you can understand why some posted what they did.

Well, you're right about one thing, I am confused. I'm confused by that last post of yours, as well as your need to argue pointless matters like the ones in this thread. But, oh well, it can be amusing. I'll play along.

I'm a simple guy, I communicate in simple ways, and I say exactly what I mean. As a result, I usually don't have a problem with people misunderstanding me.

But, just for kicks I went and got one of my kids Webster's dictionaries. Here's what it says-

Performance-
1. the act of performing
2. functional effectiveness
3. deed or feat
etc.

Quality-
1. that which makes something what it is
2. basic nature; kind
3. the degree of excellence of a thing
4. excellence; superiority

Ok , I'll use my Buck 110 as my example-

Performance- Anytime that I've ever wanted to cut something with it, it easily cut whatever it was I wanted cut. Rope, twine, 1/4 inch leather hides, rubber hose, skinning and butchering small game, countless wood carving tasks, etc, etc, etc. Being a work knife, I always kept it sharp. And though it certainly needed to be sharpened more often than my s30v knives, I've never had dificulty sharpening it. A few strokes on a fine hone and that Buck 110 was ready for work agin. Being a work knife, I never let it get so dull that it couldn't continue cutting if absolutely necessary.

In my personal opinion, and from my personal experience, I'd say that qualifies for Performance definition #2.

Quality- My Buck is 32 years old. It has never faild to open. I've never had dificulty opening it. I've never lost a screw or had to disassemble it. I've never had to send it back to the manufacturer for work. I've never had any difficulty sharpening it. The lock has never accidentally come unlocked. The knife has never opened accidentally. The knife has never come apart in any way. After all it's been through, it's still just as solid as the day I got it.

In my personal opinion, and from my personal experience, I'd say my Buck meets some degree of Quality definitions 3 and 4.

I don't believe that I've described my Buck as being "high quality" as you suggested. I'll double check on that. I've never suggested that my Buck is at the SAME level of quality as a Sebenza. I did say that my Buck 110, at a cost of $25, can cut anything just as easily as a Sebenza. I've also previously acknowledged that my Buck would need to be sharpened more often than a Sebenza. And I believe I asked the question, "What can a Sebenza cut that my Buck 110 can't cut?" But I never got an answer (perhaps that was in a different thread).

Boy, I've enjoyed this more than I expected. This post has been a walk down memory lane thinking about all the years, all the adventures, and all the things I've done with that Buck. Thank you for that Ankerson.

 

[Ankerson]

Well, you're right about one thing, I am confused. I'm confused by that last post of yours, as well as your need to argue pointless matters like the ones in this thread. But, oh well, it can be amusing. I'll play along.

I'm a simple guy, I communicate in simple ways, and I say exactly what I mean. As a result, I usually don't have a problem with people misunderstanding me.

But, just for kicks I went and got one of my kids Webster's dictionaries. Here's what it says-

Performance-
1. the act of performing
2. functional effectiveness
3. deed or feat
etc.

Quality-
1. that which makes something what it is
2. basic nature; kind
3. the degree of excellence of a thing
4. excellence; superiority

Ok , I'll use my Buck 110 as my example-

Performance- Anytime that I've ever wanted to cut something with it, it easily cut whatever it was I wanted cut. Rope, twine, 1/4 inch leather hides, rubber hose, skinning and butchering small game, countless wood carving tasks, etc, etc, etc. Being a work knife, I always kept it sharp. And though it certainly needed to be sharpened more often than my s30v knives, I've never had dificulty sharpening it. A few strokes on a fine hone and that Buck 110 was ready for work agin. Being a work knife, I never let it get so dull that it couldn't continue cutting if absolutely necessary.

In my personal opinion, and from my personal experience, I'd say that qualifies for Performance definition #2.

Quality- My Buck is 32 years old. It has never faild to open. I've never had dificulty opening it. I've never lost a screw or had to disassemble it. I've never had to send it back to the manufacturer for work. I've never had any difficulty sharpening it. The lock has never accidentally come unlocked. The knife has never opened accidentally. The knife has never come apart in any way. After all it's been through, it's still just as solid as the day I got it.

In my personal opinion, and from my personal experience, I'd say my Buck meets some degree of Quality definitions 3 and 4.

I don't believe that I've described my Buck as being "high quality" as you suggested. I'll double check on that. I've never suggested that my Buck is at the SAME level of quality as a Sebenza. I did say that my Buck 110, at a cost of $25, can cut anything just as easily as a Sebenza. I've also previously acknowledged that my Buck would need to be sharpened more often than a Sebenza. And I believe I asked the question, "What can a Sebenza cut that my Buck 110 can't cut?" But I never got an answer (perhaps that was in a different thread).

Boy, I've enjoyed this more than I expected. This post has been a walk down memory lane thinking about all the years, all the adventures, and all the things I've done with that Buck. Thank you for that Ankerson.

Buck 110's aren't and never have been screw construction so that is a mute argument.

Yes I have had more than 5 Buck 110's and 2 Buck 112's in my lifetime so I am more than aware of what they are.

I always love those arguments of what can X knife cut that Y knife can't, that's not really a valid argument either and never really has been when a sharpened piece of pot metal or even a rock can cut things.

A lot depends on intended use and or real use of the said knives and how often they are used in those roles, that will vary greatly depending on the person.

Now.....

Performance is a variety of things:

1) Cutting ability (Slicing) and efficiency, That's the big one.
2) Toughness
3) Edge holding

Quality:

1) Materials used
2) Fit and finish
3) Overall Design for intended use.


The above is all based on facts that can be backed up based on hard data and has really nothing to do with snobbery or anything else of that matter.

NOW.....

Good enough is an opinion, yours or anyone else's, but it's still an opinion.

When one starts using statements like good enough, just as good as etc then that is all based on pure opinions and or individual perception, bias or other personal agendas.

Snobbery works 2 ways and only comes into play when either of these two things happen:

1) A person looks down on another person (Knife in this case).
2) A person makes excuses for downing another person's choices (Knife in this case).

Excuses like those phrases:

Just as good.

As good as.

See where I am going with this?

If good enough was really a broad based fact we would all still be using Bronze or Rocks.

 

[Pseudonym]

If good enough was really a broad based fact we would all still be using Bronze or Rocks.

That's a sig if I've ever seen one.

 

[Pseudonym]

Look more carefully, see the , if I had been "upset", I would have used the . See the difference?

For the record, I consider the VAST majority of discussion in this forum to be insignificant. After all, we're not curing cancer here. We're not negotiating nuclear disarmament with Iran. We've had 7+ pages of this thread, other than the entertainment of arguments, what exactly has been accomplished?

If you've read many of my posts in General Discussion, you'd see that I don't take any of this very seriously at all (see reasons above). I mentioned in another thread about "argument as spectator sport" here at Bladeforums. I can be both a spectator and a player. I've got time to kill.

Then why are you here?

Anyway, you're being awfully defensive for someone who doesn't take this discussion seriously.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Everybody's hung up on the definition of quality but what really needs to be determined is, what is your definition of cheap.

adj. cheap·er, cheap·est
1.
a. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive.
b. Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant.
2.
a. Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money.
b. Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars.
3. Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.
4. Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap.
5. Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy.
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.

The two bolded definitions are the ones bein' mentioned, once you know your definition of cheap if it's an issue of price point than cheap is a relative term dependin' on what the buyer can afford.

Cheap to me may not be cheap to you.

If your definition of cheap is lack of QC, poor build quality and inferior materials, don't buy junk, (my Old Man always said to, "Buy the best ya can afford" and he was right, so in that case, ya need to reevaluate your price range where ya might find that what ya used to think was cheap, ain't now.

 

[Ankerson]

Everybody's hung up on the definition of quality but what really needs to be determined is, what is your definition of cheap.

adj. cheap·er, cheap·est
1.
a. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive.
b. Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant.
2.
a. Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money.
b. Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars.
3. Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.
4. Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap.
5. Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy.
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.

The two bolded definitions are the ones bein' mentioned, once you know your definition of cheap if it's an issue of price point than cheap is a relative term dependin' on what the buyer can afford.

Cheap to me may not be cheap to you.

If your definition of cheap is lack of QC, poor build quality and inferior materials, don't buy junk, (my Old Man always said to, "Buy the best ya can afford" and he was right, so in that case, ya need to reevaluate your price range where ya might find that what ya used to think was cheap, ain't now.

That is the problem I think in a variety of ways.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I reckon all of us are a bit 'snobbish' since we're all gathered here on a website that celebrates our mutual hobby. We have made it a habit of sharing our experiences, both good and bad, and honing our knowledge base and skills--perhaps it could be said that, collectively, we have earned the right to be critical on the subject of knives.

The layman won't give a damn though. They'll just stick with what they know and carry on the same as they've always done--no desire or interest to do otherwise. Maybe they carry a pocket knife as religiously as the rest of us but would not ever dream of paying more than $20 for one. Sound like anyone you know?

I think true 'knife snobbery' exists when someone uses their blade knowledge to belittle others with it rather than to elevate and educate them. I may know a helluva lot more about knives than my neighbour, but I'm just a little polliwog here in the BladeForums pond. I guess that makes me both teacher and student; sympathetic to both roles. There's always a bigger fish.

Sorry for the soapbox sermon...

Well said Mr. Weasel, I often wonder if when the first man who picked up a jagged rock to scrape meat off the bone of a dead animal laughed and looked down at the poor idiots that were tryin' to beat their meat off with a stick.

 

[not2sharp]

Let me give you an analogy with watches: you can't argue that a Rolex is higher quality than a Timex. Does that mean that a Timex can't tell the time? Or that mean that a Timex is less durable? Not necessarily. But there is much more time, effort, workmanship, premium materials, and attention to detail that go into making a Rolex. That's what drives the price up.

Some people care about that stuff, others don't. But you can't argue that because you don't care about it it's not there.

True this.

I also have to admit that I have an apparent multiple-personality disorder that is becoming ever more evident as I grow older (old). The collector in me appreciates the quality of a wide range of knives and now having owned, used, sold, or traded many thousands of them over a number of decades; enjoys putting together and selling off collections of interesting knives. These collections may be based on form, materials, makers, historical relevance, ethnographics, or something else. Lately, I have been accumulating antique butcher knives; why? Because I haven't done that before. Ultimately as each collection becomes more mature, the process of collecting additional worthwhile examples becomes more exotic, expensive, time consuming, and tedious; the momentum slows down and my interests eventually drifts elsewhere. At various times I have put together good collections of Randall Knives, Spyderco, Chris Reeves, and many other custom or factory knives only to sell them off and move on. Quality to a collector is not necessarilly related to quality of manufacture or useability, it is about whatever theme defines the current collecting interests and how well a particular example fits into that category.

Then there is the practical side of me, which was how I discovered knives in the first place, but which has now settled for a few old tools. The collector in me would frown on most of them. But, they have been around forever and have grown so comfortable in hand that I am barely aware of their brand, make, composition or origins at all. They are just the tools you reach for in the drawer, pocket, or pack which are always there to get the job done. It takes a conscious effort to move your hand away from there to test out a new knife, which no matter how well it does, will not replace the old line up unless a tool is lost or broken. Even then, it will feel awkward until you grow use to it.

Which is my way of saying, that it need not make sense, it needs only to be fun, useful or interesting.

n2s

 

[Gator97]

WOW! You certainly put a lot of work into that post Gator97.

I wouldn't want to add to your confusion, and leave you guessing which reply applied to particular sections from you.

I mean, you actually dissected my post by individual sentences.

It's not that hard, hit enter, copy paste... Even if you are not comp savvy.

I've never put so much effort into responding to a post in my life.

Yeah, that shows without your explanation Anyway, since you are into effortless and pointless posting, why complain about BF pointless threads or anything else around here?

I don't know wether I should be flattered, or be concerned for your mental health.

Whatever makes you happy, nobody else is concerned.

...recognize that it's all just silliness,

Yeah, lots of it.

 

[rick@arlanrds.com]

Look at sog also

 

[Ken44]

Liking high quality knives isn't being a snob. If high dollar high quality knives are all you have that isn't being a snob either.
It just means you like high quality ONLY, and can afford it.

Me, I like all types. I get just as much joy from my Case Peanut's as I do from my Sebenza's for example.

 

[Kai Winters]

I suppose it's all about the quality, materials, fit and finish, numbers made, etc. and perhaps the use...hard versus box...not really the corrugated cardboard but the tape sealing it...and letters.
A $5.00 knife will do pretty much everything the average person needs a knife to do...but don't depend on it when its' break point is being tested as it's going to fail...the pin holding the blade, the cheap plastic sides, scales, etc., the edge...compared to a better quality knife.

Same holds true for most things...a wrist watch is a wrist watch and you can buy one that works reasonably well for a few bucks or spend outrageous amounts...depends on you and perhaps needs...were I a diver I'd not put my life on the line with a cheap diver's watch...

I can speak knowledgeably regarding bicycles in the area...while I've ridden a bike since I was a little kid and have owned many and especially cheap ones when I was young, I raced, cat 3/masters, for several decades and have used maybe a dozen bikes during that time. A quality bike makes a world of difference compared to a cheap/inexpensive bike when it's being pushed to its' limits...30mph 90 degree turns, downhills at 65mph...I've done these and more and have had my front end shaking so badly because of a cheap headset and poor quality that I was barely in control compared to my last two bikes that have both hit 65mph on downhills...Bear Mtn during the Killington Stage Race back in the '90's when it was a 5 day event...and both bikes were stuck to the road with perfect control...just don't hit the brakes hard...My current ride was worth $5k when I built it in '99.

Quality shows and defines the difference when pushing the object to its' limit...that is where the cheap/inexpensive item...knife, etc...fails and perhaps ruins the day or worse.