Knife Steel: When is enough good enough?

A.P.F.

A.P.F.

Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Messages
7,132
I have found sharpening knife steel much like the 'Peter Principle', I rise to my level of incompetence. My tools of preference are a Lansky set and an old belt, loaded with metal polish. Not the most modern of sharpening tools, but for the most part, they work for me. When my knives loose the screaming sharp polished edge, I'll take five on the strop and I am back to my happy place.

Now, like most knife aficionados, I have always in the past been curious about the newest 'super steel', which I truly enjoy until it comes time to sharpen it. As an example, I watched in frustration as my Lansky hones just skated off my S90V Military blade. I didn't fair any better trying to strop S90V either. That Military sits in a drawer now and my BG42 military gets the use. Sometimes, these fancy new steels just confuse me. I can sharpen M390 without too much trouble, yet some offerings in D2 I have, are beyond my ken. Right now, I am enjoying my CTS-XHP Manix, but I haven't tried (or needed to) sharpen it yet.

Where am I going with all this? Simply that I have a new respect for steels such as 440c, 154CM, CPM154, S30V, VG-10 et al. I can sharpen them, they do everything that I need and I can strop them back into shape with little effort. There are many who enjoy the latest 'super steels' and that is good. It is just that my 'level of incompetence' falls somewhere below M390. Anyone else have a similar experience?
 
I have Lansky diamond hones, so tackling any steel isn't the issue for me, the time is.

Most of my knives are 1095 now. Quick to get back where I want it with little fuss.
 
It's always come down to technique and tools.

Some steels require normal pressure on a stone while the harder
Steels needed considerably more pressure.


My spyderco tenacious will take a edge faster than a
S30v PM2.
 
I decided a while ago that the latest supersteel wasn't worth it for me. The way I use and sharpen my knives, they don't give me any benefit. Once the very sharp edge is gone, I sharpen my knife. The supersteels don't hold it noticeably longer than other steels given a good and proper heat treatment. I've cut a lot of cardboard and even light metal with plain steels like AUS-8, 8Cr13MoV, and White #2, and the super steels don't show me any advantage.
 
Period of my life when I used my knives the hardest (Army/EMT) and my knives at the time were 1095, 154CM, and VG-10. Pretty much still using knives in those steels. Don't get me wrong though, I like that companies & makers are still experimenting with new stuff. I like how Kershaw moved up to Sandvik 14C28N. I own a Spyderco in ZDP-189 that has been beat like a rented mule. I've come to prefer CPM154 over 154CM. The knife I have from Ken Brock in CTS-XHP has been great. Searching and striving for better performance can only be a good thing.

That said, some of the steels that have been coming out lately will really test your sharpening ability. I use a combination of an old 12" medium grit Norton stone, Spyderco Sharpmaker, and a Spyderco medium grit ceramic stone. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer to sharpen on a stone.
 
I've avoided the super steels for two reasons - price and ease of maintenance. I like being able to easily put a razor edge on 154CM, VG-10, AUS-8, etc. I have a few in S30V and one in Elmax; anything that's any more difficult to sharpen than that, thanks, but no thanks.
 
People typically overinvest in knives and underinvest in sharpening skills/equipment. That's the problem. While reprofiling some of the super wear resistant steels can be a pain, once they're sharp, it's not difficult to keep them sharp with diamonds and diamond paste.

Are they worth it? All you have to do is look at Ankerson's wear-resistance results to see that many of these high-performance steels will blow ordinary steels out of the water.
 
A.P.F. said:
I have found sharpening knife steel much like the 'Peter Principle', I rise to my level of incompetence. My tools of preference are a Lansky set and an old belt, loaded with metal polish. Not the most modern of sharpening tools, but for the most part, they work for me. When my knives loose the screaming sharp polished edge, I'll take five on the strop and I am back to my happy place.

Now, like most knife aficionados, I have always in the past been curious about the newest 'super steel', which I truly enjoy until it comes time to sharpen it. As an example, I watched in frustration as my Lansky hones just skated off my S90V Military blade. I didn't fair any better trying to strop S90V either. That Military sits in a drawer now and my BG42 military gets the use. Sometimes, these fancy new steels just confuse me. I can sharpen M390 without too much trouble, yet some offerings in D2 I have, are beyond my ken. Right now, I am enjoying my CTS-XHP Manix, but I haven't tried (or needed to) sharpen it yet.

Where am I going with all this? Simply that I have a new respect for steels such as 440c, 154CM, CPM154, S30V, VG-10 et al. I can sharpen them, they do everything that I need and I can strop them back into shape with little effort. There are many who enjoy the latest 'super steels' and that is good. It is just that my 'level of incompetence' falls somewhere below M390. Anyone else have a similar experience?
Click to expand...

Silicon Carbide is usually best with the higher wear resistant steels... That's what I use and it will eat anything I have thrown at it.

Yes D2 can be a real bear to work with also depending on how it was heat treated and tempered.

For touch ups ceramics work very well, especially the Spyderco Brown ones.
 
Twindog said:
People typically overinvest in knives and underinvest in sharpening skills/equipment. That's the problem. While reprofiling some of the super wear resistant steels can be a pain, once they're sharp, it's not difficult to keep them sharp with diamonds and diamond paste.

Are they worth it? All you have to do is look at Ankerson's wear-resistance results to see that many of these high-performance steels will blow ordinary steels out of the water.
Click to expand...

I hear you, Twindog and yes, some applications favour the latest super steels. Perhaps for some of us, it is a 'pearls before swine' scenario. I don't cut roofing membrane or carpet, but what I do cut is easily handled by Case's CV steel. Yes, I follow Ankerson's vids frequently and his last one with S110V was an eye opener, but I have a feeling that Jim could put a mirror edge on a Doughnut if he wanted to. Nope, for my given skill set and age, I am happy with what I have, but that's just me.
 
A.P.F. said:
I hear you, Twindog and yes, some applications favour the latest super steels. Perhaps for some of us, it is a 'pearls before swine' scenario. I don't cut roofing membrane or carpet, but what I do cut is easily handled by Case's CV steel. Yes, I follow Ankerson's vids frequently and his last one with S110V was an eye opener, but I have a feeling that Jim could put a mirror edge on a Doughnut if he wanted to. Nope, for my given skill set and age, I am happy with what I have, but that's just me.
Click to expand...

That's very understandable. :)

One of my favorites is CPM 154. :)
 
I have come to the same conclusion. I love my 154CM and VG-10 blades the most because I get get them razor sharp so easily.
 
Red/Blue DMT stone seems to eat through everything fast. It took maybe 20 minutes while watching tv to reprofile a 204p Para2, for example, and the s110v forum Native wasn't different to my memory. I usually do that to put a thin edge on it than bevel it with a Sharpmaker for maintenance. It's really simple and takes no time. (I also have an extra-coarse stone, but for me it took off material faster than I like, so I don't use it :p )

I carry VG10, 154cm, and that class of steel, but there isn't much difference in maintenance time. Going with what's been said, it's as much about sharpening equipment as the steel.

For me good enough is when I get tired of buying knives :)
 
But but but but wear resistance is the only thing that matters!! Everything needs to be a super steel and hardened to the hardest possible level to maximize edge holding!!!!!!!


At least that's the feeling I get here some times.

I haven't found a reason for anything crazier than CPM 154 though I have some stuff in Elmax, S110v, M390, ZDP189, B75P etc. I have 3 customs in CPM154 and 3 in S35Vn and they do everything I need them to.
 
I am a knife *user*.

That is an important thing to note, because it is the perspective from which I view knives and blade steels. I'm not a collector, a tinker, a maker, etc. When I look at a knife, my question is always, "what does that do for me?"

For a combined total of three years, I carried blades in 8cr13mov: a Kershaw Clash combo edge for about a year and a half, then a Spyderco Persistence. I used them to cut tape, cardboard, plastics, zip ties, and similar media basically every day. I never touched up the Clash. It lost its edge and was well into tearing material by the time I replaced it. Awhile after getting the Persistence, I added a Sharpmaker. In nearly a year and a half, I touched up the edge twice. Those two touch ups were all it took to keep that blade very sharp and ready to handle any tasking I was doing.

What I have learned is that 8cr13mov is more than enough for the overwhelming majority of the knife carrying community. It isn't hard enough to be remarkable in terms of edge retention, but it clearly holds up to more use than most people are subjecting edges to. It is also extremely easy and quick to touch up. Corrosion has been a non-issue with the Persistence, and the Clash has only developed two tiny spots after sitting neglected since I got the Persistence.

So... What does "enough" really mean? To me, it means that it affords a wicked edge on a daily basis, despite regular use, with minimal maintenance. "Minimal maintenance" can look two ways: easy, occasional sharpening or slightly more work on the edge, on very rare occasions.

My lady recently gifted me with a Manix 2 G-10, with CPM S30V. It has replaced the Persistence as my EDC. Do I expect that it will outperform the Persistence? Doubtful. It should certainly retain it's edge for longer. It will also require more effort to touch up. With either one living in my pocket, I would have a knife that is easily sharp enough and tough enough to excel in the tasking I subject blades to every day. I don't need the CPM S30V. I don't need VG-10, S110V, 154CM, 440c, etc. 8cr13mov or AUS-8 are just fine. Going beyond those is a luxury, not necessity.
 
RBid said:
I am a knife *user*.

That is an important thing to note, because it is the perspective from which I view knives and blade steels. I'm not a collector, a tinker, a maker, etc. When I look at a knife, my question is always, "what does that do for me?"

For a combined total of three years, I carried blades in 8cr13mov: a Kershaw Clash combo edge for about a year and a half, then a Spyderco Persistence. I used them to cut tape, cardboard, plastics, zip ties, and similar media basically every day. I never touched up the Clash. It lost its edge and was well into tearing material by the time I replaced it. Awhile after getting the Persistence, I added a Sharpmaker. In nearly a year and a half, I touched up the edge twice. Those two touch ups were all it took to keep that blade very sharp and ready to handle any tasking I was doing.

What I have learned is that 8cr13mov is more than enough for the overwhelming majority of the knife carrying community. It isn't hard enough to be remarkable in terms of edge retention, but it clearly holds up to more use than most people are subjecting edges to. It is also extremely easy and quick to touch up. Corrosion has been a non-issue with the Persistence, and the Clash has only developed two tiny spots after sitting neglected since I got the Persistence.

So... What does "enough" really mean? To me, it means that it affords a wicked edge on a daily basis, despite regular use, with minimal maintenance. "Minimal maintenance" can look two ways: easy, occasional sharpening or slightly more work on the edge, on very rare occasions.

My lady recently gifted me with a Manix 2 G-10, with CPM S30V. It has replaced the Persistence as my EDC. Do I expect that it will outperform the Persistence? Doubtful. It should certainly retain it's edge for longer. It will also require more effort to touch up. With either one living in my pocket, I would have a knife that is easily sharp enough and tough enough to excel in the tasking I subject blades to every day. I don't need the CPM S30V. I don't need VG-10, S110V, 154CM, 440c, etc. 8cr13mov or AUS-8 are just fine. Going beyond those is a luxury, not necessity.
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You defiantly aren't using them very much if you went a year and a half with touching up the edge only twice..... And 8cr13mov at that....... Twice or 3 times a week or more how some here use their knives, including me....

But use does vary, that's actual use.....

Depends on the actual person..
 
Ankerson said:
You defiantly aren't using them very much if you went a year and a half with touching up the edge only twice..... And 8cr13mov at that....... Twice or 3 times a week or more how some here use their knives, including me....

But use does vary, that's actual use.....

Depends on the actual person..
Click to expand...

I'm constructing a building these days and because of the no knife rule on the interisland vessels I have to take, all I have at the site is an old SG endura. I dulled it in a couple of days use opening boxes of materials and fixtures. I can't imagine going for a month without touchups or major sharpening, how much more a year. :)
 
kinda surprised there are this many people here with the same mindset as myself. most of the time it seems like the general idea is people here feel like if a steel can't be taken to a 10 degree inclusive edge angle, make 6,000 cuts into rope and still split a hair lengthwise, and require a diamond sharpener attached to a chainsaw it's not worth making into a blade. not trying to say anything bad about the guys who exclusively like super/exotic steels, most of the ones I see seem like good guys and are very helpful (this is probably the best group of people on any forum I go to) just seems like a fair amount of steel snobbery/elitism happens. I like steels in the range of 440/aus, vg10, 154cm. s30v is about my high end (i'll probably own something someday in a super/exotic steel just because) and with the way I use knives I would end up having to sharpen an adamantium blade, I don't just lose the sharp edge, I tend to dull and chip blades. the high end steels could help me with that, but it's inevitable that I will damage them as well. so I like steels that I can sharpen without too much difficulty, or having to request assistance from Hephaestus. I have no issue with the high end steels, or the people that prefer them, but it irritates me when people act like 440c, or even 154cm/vg10 is unworthy of being used.
 
wesessiah said:
kinda surprised there are this many people here with the same mindset as myself. most of the time it seems like the general idea is people here feel like if a steel can't be taken to a 10 degree inclusive edge angle, make 6,000 cuts into rope and still split a hair lengthwise, and require a diamond sharpener attached to a chainsaw it's not worth making into a blade. not trying to say anything bad about the guys who exclusively like super/exotic steels, most of the ones I see seem like good guys and are very helpful (this is probably the best group of people on any forum I go to) just seems like a fair amount of steel snobbery/elitism happens. I like steels in the range of 440/aus, vg10, 154cm. s30v is about my high end (i'll probably own something someday in a super/exotic steel just because) and with the way I use knives I would end up having to sharpen an adamantium blade, I don't just lose the sharp edge, I tend to dull and chip blades. the high end steels could help me with that, but it's inevitable that I will damage them as well. so I like steels that I can sharpen without too much difficulty, or having to request assistance from Hephaestus. I have no issue with the high end steels, or the people that prefer them, but it irritates me when people act like 440c, or even 154cm/vg10 is unworthy of being used.
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I don't believe anyone is saying that. :D

That said the exotic steels aren't bad at all to maintain, about the same effort as the other steels, but they just need it less.

Where it does take more time is when people want to reprofile them, and yes due to the increased wear resistance it will take longer.

As far as touch ups go a Sharpmaker will make short work of them or a strop that would be used on the other steels.

I can touch up Steels Like S110V in seconds two or 3 passes on each side maybe.... freehand on a Spyderco Med Ceramic rod (File).....

So no they really aren't all that bad to deal with.

It actually can take longer to deal with the lower alloy steels touching them up.... ;)

I have shown people in person how easy it can be and it blows their minds......
 
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