Knife Steel: When is enough good enough?

RBid said:
The point, as I said earlier, is that the blades retain enough of a working edge to do the jobs. I'm not talking about hair popping edges. I'm talking about an edge sufficient to get things done in the real world.

Maintaining hair popping edges with 8cr13mov is hardly an issue, either. After months without a touch up, it took just a couple minutes with the Sharpmaker to get the Persistence shaving sharp again.

I think that a realistic view of what "enough" means, defined according to real use, will punctuate the point that we tend to buy beyond what is strictly necessary. This is absolutely OK, of course. There's nothing wrong with going beyond "enough" into superior performance.
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As I said, if your knives still cut after a year of use, it's not the steel, it's the geometry.

As I mentioned, a lot of my friends have these $2 kitchen knives with mystery steel which is obviously not enough. They still cut after a fashion but that's because of the behind the edge thickness and the geometry. Not because of the steel.
 
I kinda see the steel used as a feature, like the lock mechanism or the blade shape. It's how well all of the elements work together that makes the knife. The draw of the 3V Warcraft Tanto is that it's designed to be nearly indestructible, the 110V Manix and Native - along with the ZDP Spydercos - are all performance slicers with steels to match. The Sebenza has been a staple in no small part because of the easily maintainable keenness of S35VN and S30V. Emerson's 154CM is practical and easy to maintain, just like the knives are.

All steels have a purpose, but no steel is all-purpose. There's an H1 folder in my backpack and I don't have to worry about it because it is FRN and H1, which isn't going to corrode if I go hiking and it rains or it falls into water. I carry a 110v Manix 2 because my work and my life involves cutting things open fairly regularly, and I want a fine keen edge that lasts through the day and doesn't force me to break out the wicked edge or strops nightly just so I can make clean cuts the next day.

I also carry a Lionspy for tasks that require less slicing and more force. I wouldn't dream of cutting a wire with my Manix, but I'll plow right through it with the Lionspy. Plastic straps that might damage the thin edge of the Manix? Let's use a fifth of an inch thick slab of Elmax with a 34 degree inclusive edge. No issues, no damage, still shaves hair and cuts cleanly.

I deal with a lot of shipping at work and I do a lot of buying/selling/trading of knives which also involves quite a bit of shipping. Lots of tape and cardboard and plastic. My echelon went from looking brand new to looking like it had tiger stripes from use in less than a week (granted, I sold or traded about 25 knives that week. They know me at the post office and UPS Store on sight now. I also now work at the UPS store, where my mailbox is.)

Steel snobbery can be obnoxious, but that doesn't mean there is no reason for the steels to be used and carefully chosen. I wouldn't buy a ZDP machete and I wouldn't bring a M4 knife on a dive. Steels matter, but no more and no less than any other feature. You wouldn't buy a Sebenza if the lockbar was cheap pot metal, and you wouldn't buy a 0560 if it had plastic washers. All elements combine to make the knife, all potential dealbreakers for each individual user or owner.
 
I care far far more about geometry than I do about steel, but I generally prefer fairly simple steels like 10XX series steels, 12C27, AUS8, L6, 420HC, X55CrMo14, etc. that can be quickly repaired should they get dinged hitting something they shouldn't. I don't care much about routine touchups because they take seconds to do, but fixing accidental damage quickly is much more time consuming on many of the "super steel" class varieties.
 
In my workplace, I need something with a very high wear resistance for the stuff I cut... I could sharpen my Paramilitary 2 in S30V so it pops hair, but by mid day cutting stuff with it, it wouldn't cut cardboard. I've had that happen to S30V, 8CR(pretty much dulled by my first coffee break), 14C28, Infi, Elmax and CPM 154. I started to carry my composite 0777 which was great until it got stolen on a job site. Then it was the M390 Military, which also served fine until my co-worker lost it... Now I carry a Delica because I'm tired of losing my expensive limited edition knives at work... I also started to carry one of those break off exact-o blades for those seriously edge degrading cuts and to lend out to idiot co-workers until I get my S110V Manix which no one will touch...
 
singularity35 said:
As I said, if your knives still cut after a year of use, it's not the steel, it's the geometry.

As I mentioned, a lot of my friends have these $2 kitchen knives with mystery steel which is obviously not enough. They still cut after a fashion but that's because of the behind the edge thickness and the geometry. Not because of the steel.
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Wait, sir.

If the geometry is the more critical factor in continued function, and the steel isn't preventing the tool from performing adequately (as opposed to optimally), then wouldn't it be accurate to say that the steel is "enough" as implemented?
 
RBid said:
Wait, sir.

If the geometry is the more critical factor in continued function, and the steel isn't preventing the tool from performing adequately (as opposed to optimally), then wouldn't it be accurate to say that the steel is "enough" as implemented?
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Not at all, it's the geometry that's enough as implemented.

Anyway, have fun using your dull knives. We seem to be going around in circles. I wasn't here to tell you about steels. I was here to doubt your knife use , having been around people who depend on blades for a living, none, I repeat none, have had knives that have gone unsharpened for a year. I say this with your initial post in mind.

I myself grew up in a farm and made a living through farming for over half my life. I have depended upon knives and edged implements for a living too.

RBid said:
I am a knife *user*.

That is an important thing to note, because it is the perspective from which I view knives and blade steels. I'm not a collector, a tinker, a maker, etc. When I look at a knife, my question is always, "what does that do for me?"
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singularity35 said:
Not at all, it's the geometry that's enough as implemented.

Anyway, have fun using your dull knives. We seem to be going around in circles. I wasn't here to tell you about steels. I was here to doubt your knife use , having been around people who depend on blades for a living, none, I repeat none, have had knives that have gone unsharpened for a year. I say this with your initial post in mind.

I myself grew up in a farm and made a living through farming for over half my life. I have depended upon knives and edged implements for a living too.
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You'll note, sir, that I stated in my first post that the Clash was well into tearing after neglect, and that the Persistence was touched up twice to maintain a working edge.

Regarding your doubt:

The magic of truth is that it doesn't matter whether people believe it or not.
 
Ankerson said:
Steels like S110V are just as easy to sharpen as 440C, it's all technique and what one uses to sharpen with.

I can and do touch up steels like S110V in seconds on ceramics or a strop so it doesn't take anything fancy to maintain them.

Now yeah reprofiling the edge or repairing chips etc steels like S110V or S90V will take a lot longer to deal with than steels like 440C due to the increased wear resistance.

But for general touch ups I haven't noticed any difference in S110V and CPM 154 time or difficulty wise, or S90V and S30V for that matter....

What I have noticed however is that some of my cheap kitchen knives (Chicago Cutlery) take longer to touch up than the knives in S110V and S90V that I use in the kitchen.
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That hasnt been my experience. Easier is a relative term and just like you say its in your technique and what you use to sharpen with. And technique comes easier for some than it does others. So for you, you may find that you can sharpen any steel with no problem. Me on the other hand struggle will certain alloys which is why I prefer certain steels as I find them easier to work with based on my technique and my sharpener (edge pro apex). I can sharpen S30V no problem. Elmax? Not so much. I swear that stuff is the bane of my existence. One example I had made of that steel lost its edge incredibly fast. But to my amazement when trying to sharpen it my stones simply would not bite into the steel. I know, I know buy diamond stones. But that would simply add to my list of reasons not to care for higher end steels as I dont want to have to invest in costlier sharpening accessories that need to be replaced themselves more often. To this day its the only blade that defeated my sharpener. For me its just not worth it. For me it breaks down like this

Super steel pros:

1. Edge lasts marginally longer than normal

Cons

2. for me its harder to sharpen
3. Takes longer to sharpen
4. Requires more skill to upkeep
5. May or may not require upgrades to sharpener currently used
6. Higher initial purchase cost and replacement cost if lost or stolen.
4.
 
I'm pretty simple when it comes to steel. I prefer carbon and I own only one stainless blade, a custom in S35VN.

For my needs, 1095, W2, A2 and super blue are perfect. All of them take an insanely sharp edge and hold it for a good amount of time. They're easy to sharpen with a setup as simple as a block of wood and some sandpaper.
 
A.P.F. said:
I have found sharpening knife steel much like the 'Peter Principle', I rise to my level of incompetence. My tools of preference are a Lansky set and an old belt, loaded with metal polish. Not the most modern of sharpening tools, but for the most part, they work for me. When my knives loose the screaming sharp polished edge, I'll take five on the strop and I am back to my happy place.

Now, like most knife aficionados, I have always in the past been curious about the newest 'super steel', which I truly enjoy until it comes time to sharpen it. As an example, I watched in frustration as my Lansky hones just skated off my S90V Military blade. I didn't fair any better trying to strop S90V either. That Military sits in a drawer now and my BG42 military gets the use. Sometimes, these fancy new steels just confuse me. I can sharpen M390 without too much trouble, yet some offerings in D2 I have, are beyond my ken. Right now, I am enjoying my CTS-XHP Manix, but I haven't tried (or needed to) sharpen it yet.

Where am I going with all this? Simply that I have a new respect for steels such as 440c, 154CM, CPM154, S30V, VG-10 et al. I can sharpen them, they do everything that I need and I can strop them back into shape with little effort. There are many who enjoy the latest 'super steels' and that is good. It is just that my 'level of incompetence' falls somewhere below M390. Anyone else have a similar experience?
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Note how you get "lesser steels" sharp and functional but you are still interested in these other steels that are not only more difficult to sharpen but also cost significantly more... what I'm trying to say is that for your needs you already know what you should go with. I'm like you and prefer the common steels :)
 
Thalestin said:
Note how you get "lesser steels" sharp and functional but you are still interested in these other steels that are not only more difficult to sharpen but also cost significantly more... what I'm trying to say is that for your needs you already know what you should go with. I'm like you and prefer the common steels :)
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Yes indeed. Right now I have an S30V blade in my pocket which is screaming sharp. If a few carbides get knocked out or some micro chipping occurs, no problemo. I can either strop it, sharpen it, or make do with a toothy edge. Don't get me wrong, I in no way disapprove of those who run with the big dogs in the steel world, it's just that I am happy with a Jack Russell. ;)
 
Honestly the aesthetics and feel of the knives i buy become a lot more of a factor for me then the steel used. I don't cut a 1000ft of cardboard through out my day to need the latest super steel.
 
RBid said:
The magic of truth is that it doesn't matter whether people believe it or not.
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The downside of an exaggeration is that it is immediately obvious to people who know what they're talking about. ;)


Oooh, I can post pithy sayings too. :D
 
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Maybe i'm an oddball but for me, part of the enjoyment in knives is the process of sharpening. Im definitely a cheaper knife guy but i have no problem with dropping a lot of coin on sharpening equipment. In fact i probably have more money in sharpening supplies than i do in the knives themselves. For me, its about getting the maximum performance out of cheaper knives. Therefore most of my blades are in the range of 8cr to vg-10. There are many factors that goes into a cost of a knife but blade steel is usually the main driving force that brings up price. There's a plethora of high quality, low price knives on the market running Aus8,8/9 cr, 440c, etc etc. So i can afford more of these to enjoy and with a little work on the stones and leather will out-perform any knife for any price, period. With cheaper knives i could care less about keeping it in mint condition so the first thing i do after pulling it out of the box is get rid of that piss poor edge and put my own on it. I feel a lot more proud of a blade that re-pprofiled and sharpened to a mirror polish until it will push cut and EASILY slice phone book paper. And once you get it to that point, the hard work is over. These steels will take a wicked sharp edge and hold it surprisingly well. Touchups are a breeze but as was said before, touch ups with even the newer "super steels" still isnt hard at all.

Long story short, if you are willing to invest in good sharpening equipment and the time it take to become good at it, you can afford a lot of great knives out there and make them perform better than ones costing several hundred dollars. To this day the sharpest knife i have ever seen is my Buck Vantage in 13c26. A $40 dollar knife. Its not made of titanium, zirconium, mokuti, carbon fiber, or anything else fancy. It isnt valuable now and it probably wont be in 20 years, either. But its a knife. It cuts. And it does it better than any knife ive ever owned or even held that did have all of those exotic materials. Get it sharp and its a breeze to keep it there. Then, you have money left over for a couple more.Variety is the spice of life!
 
Funny how some here think they know whats best for everyone else.

All I can say is my CF/S90V Manix2 XL is an AmaZINg cutter/slicer/dicer/chopper etc. Holds a edge better than anything else I've ever used before and as for resharpening/touch-ups I don't find it any harder to sharpen on the SM than any other type of steel..I just use a little more pressure than I would for say VG10, same number of strokes.
 
ToxicBot11 said:
Funny how some here think they know whats best for everyone else.

All I can say is my CF/S90V Manix2 XL is an AmaZINg cutter/slicer/dicer/chopper etc. Holds a edge better than anything else I've ever used before and as for resharpening/touch-ups I don't find it any harder to sharpen on the SM than any other type of steel..I just use a little more pressure than I would for say VG10, same number of strokes.
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I would hardly tell it s a chopper, and as you said you re doing only touch ups on SM. Without diamond rods, good luck reprofiling it. Even with them its not so easy. Its a good knife nonetheless.
 
Yes, somewhat. For me M390 in a folding knife and CPM 3V/INFI in a fixed blade are my favorite steels. Especially taking in account that I want to be able to sharpen my knife myself. But since I don't like sharpening I rather do it not too often. On my hardcore users, I use the WorkSharp Knife and Tool Sharpener, so that's quick and easy. My C/F M390 Millie I sharped once with the Spyderco Sharpmaker. Put a 20 degree micro bevel on (Spydies come with 15) and I didn't find that too hard to do. Once I failed sharpening a knife. It was a incredibly blunt cheap ass kitchen knife with no mentioning of steel on the blade. I bragged: "I will sharpen that for you." But only had a Sharpmaker at the the time with the standard two sets of stones. Anyway, I couldn't get it sharp.
 
I've been thinking lately of the excitement over highly wear resistant steels. The release of the Spyderco Manix2 Lightweight S110V is bringing one of these steels into a regular production knife.
I'm wondering if this "exotic" steel becoming widely available will dim some of the fervor over these steels. I think they have little practical benefit.
I have to agree with many in this thread that these super steels are more than is needed for all but a select few of knife users.
I think of it as daily driving around a Ferrari and yet you don't even draw any admiration for your high-end steel because it looks exactly the same.
What the difference between cars with a top speed of 150mph and 200mph if you're driving on public roads?
I also like to sharpen my knives so a knife that hardly ever needs to be sharpened probably won't make me happier. I've found that steels like AUS8 are just enough but going up to S30V and VG-10 is preferable for me.
I use diamond stones and Norton SiC and I have no problem sharpening the exotic steels. They do take longer to sharpen though.
I admire the tech behind the exotic steels and I also appreciate the knife fans who rigorously test them. But once again, I see no practical benefit for most.
 
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