knife store story

THis statement is not correct for all knives:

"I am saying that flicking a knife open (and yes, that can include AOs, waves and switchblades) wears it more than opening it gently. i.e. opening a knife with MORE FORCE puts more stress on it than opening it with LESS FORCE."

Spyderco, Benchmade, Camillus, Kershaw have all indicated that their knives are DESIGNED to be flicked open. The design of the knife has taken "flicking" into account. Now CRK has clearly indicated that the sebenza was not DESIGNED to be flicked open. They won't say what happens if you flick, but they can tell when it's done and flicking is not covered by warranty. You can deny the company statements with your "logic" but that still doesn't change the truth.

Now in a long forgotten spyderco thread, the company indicated that the materials and construction of the pivot, stop pin and liner need to be optimized for hard use, including flicking. I've also read that customs can have the same problems. What's unique about the sebenza is the bushing, maybe that's the design flaw. In addition, the composition and hardening of the stop pin is important and how it interacts with the lock bar, some knife companies believe this infomation is proprietary.

Does not being able to flick make the sebenza less of a knife? To some people no to others yes. That's personal choice and how you use your knives. In very cold areas, when wearing thick gloves, flicking open a knife is common.

Does not being able to flick make the knife less strong than another? To most people, YES IT DOES. Particularly for a knife that is 10 times more expensive than a CRKT that'll flick forever.
 
Brownshoe, please read my last post. All of it.

My statement is not wrong. Opening a knife with more force puts more stress on it than opening it with less force. It doesn't matter whether it is designed to withstand it or not. Physics are physics. More stress is more stress. A baseball bat is designed to hit a baseball, but hitting a baseball with a lot of force is harder on the bat than hitting the ball with minimal force.

And again, being "designed to be flicked" does not mean it can automatically withstand it more than a knife not designed to be flicked. Case in point, Leek versus Sebenza. The Leek is designed to be "flicked" as it has AO. But the Sebenza's pivot and stop pin are still stronger, even though it is not designed to be flicked. Not being able to flick a Sebenza does not make it less strong. It is still far stronger than any CRKT. Being able to flick a junk knife (not saying CRKTs are all junk) doesn't magically make the parts stronger. I highly doubt that any CRKT is as strong as a Sebenza in the eyes of "most people". You can flick them easier due to their design, but the Sebenza would take the "abuse" far better as it is far stronger.

So my statement is correct for all knives. Physics do not change from knife to knife, not even if a knife has a wave.

I am not denying Chris Reeve's statements. I am using logic to prove that his statements do not allow you to (logically) make the leap that his knives are not strong. The Sebenza is not designed to be flicked by way of it's bushing, strong detent, and pointy thumb-stud. It has nothing to do with it's strength or ability to withstand flicking.
 
Hair, i've been in situations like this. Don't sweat it, you are not going to convince brownshoe or others of anything. (Despite you being right. :p )
 
ya know, i think cris reeve should improve the design so they will take the flicking, you know, beef it up, the pivot/etc, shouldnt take much imho.

he needs to get it up to snuff when compared to the axis/compression/etc.

i always knew there was just SOMETHING about sebs, lol.
 
i wonder why 'ol chris has such a problem with it when all the other folks (ie BM, spyderco, crawford, darrel ralph, strider, EKI, et.al) PROMOTE the practice and go on & on about how there knives are designed for inertia opening (and yes i very much believe that a good folder can be beefed up to the point were any such wear is so miniscule its not relevant to the discussion) and also warranty it? could it be he has had to warranty knives a time/2 that in his opinion were damaged by this, and therefore wants to cut his losses? if so, if they are damaged by this, is this a weak point on the seb? weak point being ya cant inertia open it like ya could say an axis (or compression, or....)? i dont know, but were there is smoke there is fire.

i would just like to ask him "WTF" and "why dont ya do whatever ya need to do to beef it up"?

it does make a diff to me if the maker of the knife says "dont" do something i do all the time, and another says "do it not a prob" logic would dictate that at the least the flicking pro crowd has a lot more confidence in there product thanthe anti flicking crowd (or in this case cris reeve).

and sure i can see where flicking could cause some wear, and if the locks not strong it could damage it, but hey we have gone to the moon, we cant beef up the pivot/etc on a knife to were ya could flick it open? surely, surely thats not impossible, in fact imho BM has done just that with the axis and spyderco too with the compression. i bet i have inertia opened a axis and compression lock dozens, no hundreds if not thousands of times with no damage to anything.

so lets try this:

which one of you guys out in cyberspace has ever had a BM axis lock or spyderco compression lock fail on ya due to flicking it open? by fail i mean its worn it so much it no longer locks up properly?? and actually had it happen to you, not "i heard of this" or "he said that" it failed on YOU due to flicking the thing.
 
Lets not confuse a mass producing company's willingness to allow users to abuse/warranty with actual quality. A 100$ junk pickup truck will haul bricks better than a lexus, but that doesnt mean its of higher quality. Im amazed this is such a big thorn in peoples' sides....
 
Im saying that if you are going to compare strength alone, you may as well be comparing a block of steel with a pivot and the sebenza, if you are going to ignore everything else about the knife. You can't equate strength to quality since I really dont thing anyone here will claim that Chris CANT make a knife that will withstand constant hard flicking. All that is being said is that he does not condone it and considers it abuse given the composition of his knife. I could easilly make a knife you could flick from now until eternity, but it certainly wouldnt have the smoothness and quality of a sebenza. I have a beautiful Kious folder. I have no doubt I could flick it if I wanted to....but who knows if it would survive forever flciking it every time. Does that mean that my Joe Kious folder is lower quality than some POS you pick up at walmart whose manufacturer doesnt really care if you flick it all day?
 
I've really enjoyed this thread and admire that you guys have remained civil in this disagreement. :D It honestly sounds like one of the debates my brother and I used to have over some sublime point.

All of that being said, my folders are admittedly at a lower price point than many of the ones being discussed in this thread. In fact, my most expensive is riding in my slacks right now: a BM 635 LE. Bearing that in mind, I would have to agree that the physics involved means that flicking any knife puts more strain on the device. Is it enough to warrant not doing it over the life of the knife? I guess that's up to the user. My computer stays on 24/7. I'm sure it will decrease the life of the pc... but by the time that happens, I will have upgraded anyway. I know the same isn't necessarily true of knives.

But, if one manufacturer says "Don't sweat it" then I'm likely to do it and if there is ever a problem, it is warranteed. Based on the comments in this thread, it sound like CR has a personal problem with "flicking" and sees it as abuse with no value. If you agree, buy his knife. If you disagree and expect to ever have any warranty support, don't buy it.

Just my two cents... it won't even buy a gumball anymore! :D

(I'm gonna go flick my frame-lock mini-skirmish now! :p It's fun and warranteed!)
 
Agreed! If the Sebenza is too weak of a knife for you or offers too little support in the event you flick it to death, there are many options out there whose makers dont care what you do with their knives.

I see this much akin to batoning....most makers will tell you that they won't warranty a knife that was used to baton and split wood due to the number of factors in such a process that put stresses on a knife never intended by the maker.

The knife has a thumbstud and is intended to be opened that way. If it was intended to be flicked to open by inertia alone, it would have been deisgned differently and would also be illegal.

IMHO, this argument is more about people wanting to use something in a way that clearly the maker does not intend. If they want to disregard that, they wont be warrantied, and thats that. I perosnally wouldnt buy a knife then complain that the maker should change his style. I'd buy a knife whose maker MADE knives in the style i want.

Unfortunately for most of these people, the sebenza is a fantastic knife, and they want to have their cake and eat it, and have it served on an invisible, indestructible, personally engraved platter, too.
 
Having graduated from college with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, one concept I came away understanding is that everything has a finite life. Under normal use, a product will last it's design life. Heavier use will shorten that life, lighter use will lengthen it. Basic physics.

From handling and using several sebenzas, I would guess their design life to be in the range of 80 to 100 years (under normal daily use). At least the lock, pivot, and stop portion of the knife would have this life. I would also estimate that one hard flick of a knife might put as much wear on a knife as 50 to 100 normal openings, maybe more. I think this would be true of most any knife, not just a sebenza. So theoretically, by sitting on the couch and flicking your sebenza nonstop for several hours a day, a person could put 100 years of wear on the knife in a year or two.

All Chris Reeve is saying with his warranty is that, if you choose to do this, he's not going to pay for it. After all, you are the one who choose to wear out your 100 year knife in 2 years. I can think of all kinds of business reasons why a company like Chris Reeve Knives wouldn't warranty this kind of abuse while larger companies like Benchmade would, but they would have nothing to do with the quality of the Reeve knive being less that the Benchmade.

So if you want to flick a knife to excess, don't buy a sebenza because there are other knives that flick just as nice or better and can be replaced for free when worn out. But don't make the mistake that the lack of this coverage in the Reeve warranty indicates that the knives are inferior because nothing could be further from the truth.
 
You are my favorite person in the world. Well said. You put it much better than I did.

The last thing I will say here: Chris Reeve may be stingy-er on the warrenty in reguards to flicking, but that is not because his knives are less able to take flicking, or less strong.
 
barring the occasional obsessive compulsive flicker i seriously doubt a seb would suffer any from it.

imho, its just one smith being anal about it lol.
 
Why are we having this silly flicking debate? We all know that the act of opening a knife is considered abuse and will void the warranty. You should never open your knife, it causes premature wear. You should never cut anything with your knife, that also causes premature wear and is abuse. :rolleyes:

I've owned a Sebenza, it's the only knife I've ever sold. Nice knife, yes. Is it everything it's hyped to be? Not at all. I think my BM710 is a much stronger knife, and I paid less than half the price of the used Sebenza.

The idea of abuse is a grey area that all too often keeps people from actually using their knives. Asking what constitutes abuse is akin to saying "I'm not really confident in this knife... maybe I shouldn't do this." These things are tools.

You don't baby a hammer.
 
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