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Knife vs Hatchet vs Saw
- Thread starter canadiantrailman
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True physics is physics...
When in the woods I look for deadwood branches hanging off the forest floor. Wood on the ground has more mosture. Here are some I cut down.
Or more preferably standing dead wood saplings. These stand upright and therefore have less moisture as there is a direct correlation between the angle of the wood and moisture content.
There are factors that from the comfort of the keyboard people often don’t consider. A hatchet or axe can be more dangerous at sub zero or worse still freezing rain than on a nice warm summer day. Funky things happen when you’re beaten up. A saw is safer and often faster than some axes. Batoning wood with a knife is effective inside a shelter or if working smaller wood that just won’t stand upright. Took this photo of a buddy batoning wood inside my tent. It was around -10F outside.
Also a fixed blade knife is more UL than an axe so sometimes I will go with the knife/saw combo for distance backpacking in winter. Personally for a standard campfire I allow the fire to breakup larger wood for me or just keep pushing the fuel into the flames as it burns. I never spend too much energy making a nice neat pile-o-wood unless using one of my tent stoves. Heck often too beat anyways. All that being said I really like a hatchet when the weight is acceptable. Now for a fantasy “I Shouldn’t be Alive” horse and pony show I would take a larger camp axe over nearly any other tool in winter. But I take extreme care when using any tool in the woods especially an axe or hatchet.
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I think some of the responses here are pretty funny.
Good rant Vec, I agree with most of what you said.
Now, for those who don't understand why some of us go out with the mindset of being able to LIVE in the wilderness, look at the forum title: Wilderness and Survival Skills. How in the hell are we going to develop wilderness and survival skills if we don't practice them?
I realize there's a lot of hikers here and what that means is they like to walk as fast as they can to cover miles and get to the next equipment drop. I'm a bit dubious on how one can lecture on going light when, in fact, you end up using more equipment than a lot of guys, it's just that you mailed it to yourself along the way.
What if your idea of hiking is going out int he boonies, and your "equipment drop" is "that next stand of trees down there by the lake". Go.
Now what do you do? There's no tent or Mountain house meals in a box waiting for you. You're going to catch, hunt and kill your food. Your shelter is whatever you can make with what you're carrying and what you find there. That's wilderness and survival skills versus hiking.
Payette brings up a good point on what do you do (when going for the W&SS thing) and your saw breaks or finally just really dulls beyond your ability to sharpen? A Norton India stone, puck, or even a nice, light Diafold -- maybe even a good rock, will get your blade back into usable shape. The long blade, of a knife, or preferably, a machete or kukri mitigates most of the "safety" objections to the hatchet.
Though I find it interesting that I get hurt more often, by far, when using a hand saw than a knife, axe or kukri.
Different strokes, guys.
Campfires -- light 'em if you got 'em.
Good rant Vec, I agree with most of what you said.
Now, for those who don't understand why some of us go out with the mindset of being able to LIVE in the wilderness, look at the forum title: Wilderness and Survival Skills. How in the hell are we going to develop wilderness and survival skills if we don't practice them?
I realize there's a lot of hikers here and what that means is they like to walk as fast as they can to cover miles and get to the next equipment drop. I'm a bit dubious on how one can lecture on going light when, in fact, you end up using more equipment than a lot of guys, it's just that you mailed it to yourself along the way.
What if your idea of hiking is going out int he boonies, and your "equipment drop" is "that next stand of trees down there by the lake". Go.
Now what do you do? There's no tent or Mountain house meals in a box waiting for you. You're going to catch, hunt and kill your food. Your shelter is whatever you can make with what you're carrying and what you find there. That's wilderness and survival skills versus hiking.
Payette brings up a good point on what do you do (when going for the W&SS thing) and your saw breaks or finally just really dulls beyond your ability to sharpen? A Norton India stone, puck, or even a nice, light Diafold -- maybe even a good rock, will get your blade back into usable shape. The long blade, of a knife, or preferably, a machete or kukri mitigates most of the "safety" objections to the hatchet.
Though I find it interesting that I get hurt more often, by far, when using a hand saw than a knife, axe or kukri.
Different strokes, guys.
Campfires -- light 'em if you got 'em.
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G'day Freq
What about being able to start a fire with wet wood without any of the tools you have listed?
[youtube]gqW0lmj6lzA[/youtube]
You'll notice that none of the wood used was pre-split. As you can see from the amount of steam mixed in with the smoke, that wood was plenty wet.
Bear in mind, I don't frequent areas that see a lot of people (heck, I haven't seen any evidence of anyone else having been through the areas I go), so I have a certain luxury in not having the areas I venture into picked clean of deadfall.
IMO, being able to use successively thicker grades of kindling negates the need to split wet wood to light a fire :thumbup:
Kind regards
Mick
What about being able to start a fire with wet wood without any of the tools you have listed?
[youtube]gqW0lmj6lzA[/youtube]
You'll notice that none of the wood used was pre-split. As you can see from the amount of steam mixed in with the smoke, that wood was plenty wet.
Bear in mind, I don't frequent areas that see a lot of people (heck, I haven't seen any evidence of anyone else having been through the areas I go), so I have a certain luxury in not having the areas I venture into picked clean of deadfall.
IMO, being able to use successively thicker grades of kindling negates the need to split wet wood to light a fire :thumbup:
Kind regards
Mick
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Cpl Punishment.
The difference between having a good time or somekinda ridicules survival situation comes down to your skills and risk mitigation. Is it safe to cross a frozen stream or simply look for a more inviting spot? Are there any widow makers looking to crush me during the night hanging overhead? Do I stay in camp that day or venture out into a storm? Did I tell people my plans and return time etc? Risk mitigation is the most important skill ANYONE can have in the backcountry. I know all about wild edibles and been hunting and fishing all my life but starvation is LOW on my list of concerns. Exposure risks and dehydration are high. People get lost in the backcountry simply because they never practiced land navigation with a map and compass or depend overly on technology that can fail like a GPS. They get hurt because risks are taken though lack of experience that isn’t fully understood until it’s too late. They panic simply because the environment is unknown. The best survival skill is learning how not to get in a survival situation to begin with. Learning what to do if circumstances conspire against someone is also needed so you're right that practicing Bushcraft skills are important too.
Back on topic.
One down side to a folding saw is the blade can break though never hurt myself with one but clearly that could happen too.
The difference between having a good time or somekinda ridicules survival situation comes down to your skills and risk mitigation. Is it safe to cross a frozen stream or simply look for a more inviting spot? Are there any widow makers looking to crush me during the night hanging overhead? Do I stay in camp that day or venture out into a storm? Did I tell people my plans and return time etc? Risk mitigation is the most important skill ANYONE can have in the backcountry. I know all about wild edibles and been hunting and fishing all my life but starvation is LOW on my list of concerns. Exposure risks and dehydration are high. People get lost in the backcountry simply because they never practiced land navigation with a map and compass or depend overly on technology that can fail like a GPS. They get hurt because risks are taken though lack of experience that isn’t fully understood until it’s too late. They panic simply because the environment is unknown. The best survival skill is learning how not to get in a survival situation to begin with. Learning what to do if circumstances conspire against someone is also needed so you're right that practicing Bushcraft skills are important too.
Back on topic.
One down side to a folding saw is the blade can break though never hurt myself with one but clearly that could happen too.
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Woods Walker, Southern Cross and CPL Punishment,
I would like to sandwich together what all of you said. I think it gives the best advice.
If you are prepared, you probably will not have to work your way out of a survival situation because you would have not let yourself get into one. But if things do go wrong, which they can in the woods, you better have practiced you skills.
All these tools work provided you know how to use them. The fact is that unless you are talking about a large axe, most these tools do not weigh that much. Why do we insist on confining ourselves to just one tool? A hatchet, folding saw and 4" blade knife are light. I take all 3 just in case. Other tools work also.
Southern Cross is right about making fires, just break the wood it's quick and fast. For shelters I would look for what’s on the ground before trying to cut, chop and process live or dead wood. It's all about spending less calories. Most trips I take I hardly use the tools, but I have practiced just in case an extreme situation comes up.
I do suggest taking all three tools just in case. Practice by dedicating one trip to using only one of the tools for everything. Next trip do the same with one of the other tools. You will quickly figure out what works best for you. For me, if I have to cut wood I like a saw.
I bet Lewis and Clark would have liked to have had a saw with them. 
Geoff
I would like to sandwich together what all of you said. I think it gives the best advice.
If you are prepared, you probably will not have to work your way out of a survival situation because you would have not let yourself get into one. But if things do go wrong, which they can in the woods, you better have practiced you skills.
All these tools work provided you know how to use them. The fact is that unless you are talking about a large axe, most these tools do not weigh that much. Why do we insist on confining ourselves to just one tool? A hatchet, folding saw and 4" blade knife are light. I take all 3 just in case. Other tools work also.
Southern Cross is right about making fires, just break the wood it's quick and fast. For shelters I would look for what’s on the ground before trying to cut, chop and process live or dead wood. It's all about spending less calories. Most trips I take I hardly use the tools, but I have practiced just in case an extreme situation comes up.
I do suggest taking all three tools just in case. Practice by dedicating one trip to using only one of the tools for everything. Next trip do the same with one of the other tools. You will quickly figure out what works best for you. For me, if I have to cut wood I like a saw.
I bet Lewis and Clark would have liked to have had a saw with them. 
Geoff
I like a saw for clean cuts and sometimes a clean saw-cut is better than a rough, chopped end. Not always, but sometimes. For fire, nope, don't a nice clean edge. In fact, a starburst log-feed is pretty handy (unless you are in a life or death EnE) and a tree-yoke can serve quite well. For a longer term shelter a saw has a definite place of value.
The survival situation drives the thing. If you gotta be a migrating hunter, your techniques need to follow. If you have the luxury of plunking down somewhere and can establish a longer-term living, you need the tools/techniques to make the best/ most appropriate shelter given the time and materials available. It all depends...
Using a saw is an exercise in patience (in technique) as is batoning or any bush-craft skill for that matter. This doesn't mean folks *can't* do these things quickly, rather just have learned *how* to do the job and are more familiar with the mechanics. Honestly, survival requires a "survive" mind-set - including learning how to get the *job* done. Any job. Anywhere. Any time. No bitching, no complaining, just do it.
I have a really nice scar on my thigh (nearly crippled me) from a razor sharp machete i was using when i was a teenager. The machete wasn't the problem, nor was the razor-sharp edge. It was my carelessness in using the machete. Also, I love splitting wood with an axe and have done it, off and on, for nearly 30 years. However, accidents can happen and with an axe thats never something small. We've all seen or heard of someone who had a wood-splitting mishap and it always involves a trip to the emergency room. If you're 20 miles from nowhere, *you* are the emergency doc and self-treatment is no small matter when you're in shock!
In my outdoors activities i enter dangerous situations carefully with an appropriate understand of 'worse-case scenario's'. Whether i'm ice/snow climbing an unfamiliar ridge-line or mountain (or familiar - it doesn't really matter), it pays to be appropriately cautious. In my experiece, yes a saw can bite, but not 'loose 2 pints of blood' kind of a bite. Using a big @ss chopper to baton some thick wood is dangerous, but certainly more 'controlled' than swinging a 2-4lb axe/hatchet.
Seriously, it all comes down to controlling inertia. What tools get the job done and still give a high-level of control? Those are the tools i reach for 1st and which will serve me well as choices for wss tools. Thats what i've taught others and has served me well for close to 25 years.
Safety 1st kids.
Sorry for the rant.
The survival situation drives the thing. If you gotta be a migrating hunter, your techniques need to follow. If you have the luxury of plunking down somewhere and can establish a longer-term living, you need the tools/techniques to make the best/ most appropriate shelter given the time and materials available. It all depends...
Using a saw is an exercise in patience (in technique) as is batoning or any bush-craft skill for that matter. This doesn't mean folks *can't* do these things quickly, rather just have learned *how* to do the job and are more familiar with the mechanics. Honestly, survival requires a "survive" mind-set - including learning how to get the *job* done. Any job. Anywhere. Any time. No bitching, no complaining, just do it.
I have a really nice scar on my thigh (nearly crippled me) from a razor sharp machete i was using when i was a teenager. The machete wasn't the problem, nor was the razor-sharp edge. It was my carelessness in using the machete. Also, I love splitting wood with an axe and have done it, off and on, for nearly 30 years. However, accidents can happen and with an axe thats never something small. We've all seen or heard of someone who had a wood-splitting mishap and it always involves a trip to the emergency room. If you're 20 miles from nowhere, *you* are the emergency doc and self-treatment is no small matter when you're in shock!
In my outdoors activities i enter dangerous situations carefully with an appropriate understand of 'worse-case scenario's'. Whether i'm ice/snow climbing an unfamiliar ridge-line or mountain (or familiar - it doesn't really matter), it pays to be appropriately cautious. In my experiece, yes a saw can bite, but not 'loose 2 pints of blood' kind of a bite. Using a big @ss chopper to baton some thick wood is dangerous, but certainly more 'controlled' than swinging a 2-4lb axe/hatchet.
Seriously, it all comes down to controlling inertia. What tools get the job done and still give a high-level of control? Those are the tools i reach for 1st and which will serve me well as choices for wss tools. Thats what i've taught others and has served me well for close to 25 years.
Safety 1st kids.
Sorry for the rant.
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You just reminded me of my one accident with a hatchet. It was minor, just a small cut on my shin.
I was talking, gesturing, pontificating, whatever while using the hatchet.
I was teaching an axe safety course to Boy Scouts:foot:
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registered user
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Injuries can make a difference between useing an axe, saw or big knife. Hubby has a bad arm, old injury. He can't use a machete or big knife to chop with for very long. He can use a saw a little longer than a machete. But hand him an axe or maul he can chop or split wood for a half a day. Not all bad, I get all the machetes. One other thing in the winter we'll carry an axe.
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Thanks for getting this going, CanadianT, I'll add a few saws to the mix.
I ran my saws through a dry 2x4 stud at a rapid but sustainable pace to simulate how I cut when camping.
1. bowsaw with old blade, 13" blade, 13oz, 31 sec, price unknown
2. pruning saw, martha stewart kmart, 13" blade, 8oz, 32 sec, $3.99 in 2002
(homemade sheath from shampoo bottle and vinyl tape, 2 oz)
3. ARS SA-32UVproW, 13" blade, 7oz, 14 sec, $49.50
4. ARS UV-32, 13" blade, 8oz, 20 sec, $30
(homemade leather sheath, 4oz)
All tests are flawed but some are useful.
So come on let's see you guys post some cuts.
I ran my saws through a dry 2x4 stud at a rapid but sustainable pace to simulate how I cut when camping.
1. bowsaw with old blade, 13" blade, 13oz, 31 sec, price unknown
2. pruning saw, martha stewart kmart, 13" blade, 8oz, 32 sec, $3.99 in 2002
(homemade sheath from shampoo bottle and vinyl tape, 2 oz)
3. ARS SA-32UVproW, 13" blade, 7oz, 14 sec, $49.50
4. ARS UV-32, 13" blade, 8oz, 20 sec, $30
(homemade leather sheath, 4oz)
All tests are flawed but some are useful.
So come on let's see you guys post some cuts.
Interesting discussion regarding the "living in the wilderness vs hiking" aspect.
One question. The majority of my trips are 3 dayers. These are either death marches, or more relaxed, project-focused trips.
How long do people head out for when doing their "surviving" trips?
And how many have the skills to live solely on their skills to keep the calories coming in.
If you don't have the skills to completely provide for your needs (build shelter, catch food etc.), what is the difference between this and camping? No derogatory tone intended. Straight up question.
One question. The majority of my trips are 3 dayers. These are either death marches, or more relaxed, project-focused trips.
How long do people head out for when doing their "surviving" trips?
And how many have the skills to live solely on their skills to keep the calories coming in.
If you don't have the skills to completely provide for your needs (build shelter, catch food etc.), what is the difference between this and camping? No derogatory tone intended. Straight up question.
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Sounds like a great topic for another thread. Good question just the same.
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I usually work it around the Christmas/New Year holidays, and if I can keep all my vacation till then, I can squeeze almost three weeks when all is said and done.
Haven't done it the last couple of years, since all my vacation went to covering time off for surgery.
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just a quick note...on green wood using a saw and a clean cut makes the plant (tree) much happier rather than a chopping of a limb.
i think everyones different...use what suits you best...this reminds me of like a ferrari vs a porsche vs a lamborghini style post.
im good with a machete but give me an axe and ill make you cringe.
btw vec i do REALLY dig yer hawks!
i bet i could sharpen my saw with a small ceramic dowel. negating the saws get dull (and cant be sharpened)
i think everyones different...use what suits you best...this reminds me of like a ferrari vs a porsche vs a lamborghini style post.
im good with a machete but give me an axe and ill make you cringe.
btw vec i do REALLY dig yer hawks!
i bet i could sharpen my saw with a small ceramic dowel. negating the saws get dull (and cant be sharpened)
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G'day Beef
When I was younger and didn't have the same responsibilities, my longest trip was 3 months through the Western side of the Snowy Mountains
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I know I can live in the bush for extended periods of time
Kind regards
Mick
P.S. BTW, if you decide to make this it's own topic, I'll be more than happy to provide pics, videos and links to other posts (unfortunately on another forum) that should give an indication that I'm not making unsubstantiated claims :thumbup:
Now that I have the responsibilities of a Wife, Kids and a job, most of my trips are between 7 -10 days
When I was younger and didn't have the same responsibilities, my longest trip was 3 months through the Western side of the Snowy Mountains
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I know I can live in the bush for extended periods of time
Kind regards
Mick
P.S. BTW, if you decide to make this it's own topic, I'll be more than happy to provide pics, videos and links to other posts (unfortunately on another forum) that should give an indication that I'm not making unsubstantiated claims :thumbup:
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G'day Geoff.
If there's enough interest here, I'll be more than happy to start a 'long term wilderness survival thread" :thumbup:
I must point out however, that the focus of a "long term wilderness survival thread" should be on knowledge & skills, rather than equipment.
I guess time will tell whether or not there is enough interest
Kind regards
Mick
If there's enough interest here, I'll be more than happy to start a 'long term wilderness survival thread" :thumbup:
I must point out however, that the focus of a "long term wilderness survival thread" should be on knowledge & skills, rather than equipment.
I guess time will tell whether or not there is enough interest
Kind regards
Mick