Knifemaker's Guild Show Sept 17-20

The old saying is "you can't go back". The world was a different place 10 years ago. There wasn't as many knife shows then so the ones that were held were bigger. The Internet wasn't the major part of business that it is today. Air travel and transporting knives wasn't the headache that it is today. Gas didn't cost $2.50 per gallon and people had jobs. Everbody didn't have free long distance phone calls on their cell phone or computer.

No, I never attended a 400 table Guild show. I have seen quite a few knife shows from both sides of the table, still do. This years show did in fact draw collectors from long distances. I was there and I spoke with collectors who came from New York and more than one from California who made the trip just for the show.

We also had makers from California. I sat next to two of them all weekend. We had makers from South Africa and Italy.

It is interesting that the only people I hear complaining about the show are people who were not there. Those who were there are saying good things about it. But there will always be armchair quarterbacks.

As far as I know, the Guild Show has no desire to become the Blade Show and I for one hope it never does. That is not to knock the Blade Show. It is a great show and I go every year. But it is a totally different experience as I have already described in this thread.

I still set up at some gun shows because we have a couple of good ones that come to town regularly. One is a huge 2500 table show. The other is a 400 table show. Want to guess which one I find more enjoyable to attend? Want to guess which one generates the most business for me in custom orders?

Every club, business, church or organization that I know of has problems. None are perfect and there is always room to improve. I have seen improvement in the Guild and I, along with many others, are actively involved with trying to improve it. This year was a glowing neon example of improvement in my opinion. New, better venue, new sponsors and awards, new members, new faces in the crowd. Those are improvements regardless of what the detractors say.

There is no location or venue that is going to please everybody. There is no perfect size room. I would rather have a waiting list than to see a half empty room or empty tables.

The Guild has no quarrel with the ABS and in fact welcomes ABS members and will even waive the probationary requirement for Master Smiths.

I don't really care what happened in the past. I have heard the stories from "someone who was there" and I have heard completely opposite versions of the stories from "someone who was there". It is irrelevant. It is not what is happening today.

The Guild is for makers of handmade custom knives. That excludes some people but I agree with maintaining that standard although the Guild has broadened some definitions to change with the times and technology. Again, I see this as change and improvement.

I am proud to be a member of the Knifemaker's Guild. It was a personal and professional accomplishment for me and I am honored to be in very good company. The Guild is a family and one could not help but feel that at the show. That's all good in my humble opinion.
 
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Bottom line, AT, were there substantially more tables this year than there have been at the last two or three Orlando shows? I'm not going to travel 4000 miles round trip for a 125 table show when I can spend the same money going to the Blade Show. There are plenty of custom shows in the 100 table range much closer and I would probably see many of the same makers. I may not have went this year but I've certainly been to more Guild shows than most of the people posting here.
 
AT.

OK here is someone that does not post with their "real" name, and did not attend this years show.
You missed a few:

Omni44
John W
Kohai999
Marcel
SharpbyCoop
Dwain
Danbo
BigAl2Me
Canine Forge
WCBill

Yes, we know some of these people listed above. Just as some of us know SideHill.

Note, not all those listed above were commenting on the show. I was just pointing out the fact they were not using their real name(s).

Like AT is your "real" name. :D

Ok that aside, your only suggestion so far in this thread is not to argue with an idiot. I suspect that Sidehill took your suggestion.

Now, what are your proposals to improve the guild and the show. As you have been a member for a long time. Im sure you have had time to think about this. That you would like to contribute something constructive to this conversation.
 
Hi Sidehill:

I'm not going to travel 4000 miles round trip for a 125 table show when I can spend the same money going to the Blade Show. There are plenty of custom shows in the 100 table range much closer and I would probably see many of the same makers. I may not have went this year but I've certainly been to more Guild shows than most of the people posting here.
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Excellent point.

So to AT and Mike or anyone else.

What are your suggestions....and implementation plans. To build up the membership and subsequently the table holders at the show?

Mike I included you in this as I saw you posted again...even after you said you wouldn't. :D
 
Sidehill Gouger said:
I'm not going to travel 4000 miles round trip for a 125 table show when I can spend the same money going to the Blade Show.
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How many of those tables at Blade are handmade custom knives?

It is a valid point though. I would like to see the Solvang show but so far I have not wanted to see it bad enough to spend the money and travel 4000 mile roundtrip to see it. I am sure there are plenty people who feel the same way about Blade and every other show.
 
Just to clarify for everyone, if you go back and read what I posted you will note that I did not say I would not post anymore. I said I would no longer respond to Les. I will be happy to engage in any rational, productive discussion but I am not going to wallow in the mud.

I will not be bullied out of a discussion that I started by someone who is trying desperately to hijack the discussion.

Likewise, you might also note that I did not say that 65% of the Guild members don't post pictures because they "don't mess with the Internet". I said that that some don't and beleive it or not that is true. I said "don't mess with the Internet" becuase that is a quote from a conversation I had with a knifemaker and it came to mind. The fact is that I know a few very good knifemakers who do not go online and in some cases don't even own a computer.

These are just a couple of classic examples of someone intentionally mis-quoting and twisting words to suit their own agenda. It is a shame that this thread has been derailed and degraded as it has.
 
My first Guild show was in 1977 at the Crown Center in Kansas City. Since that time I've only missed one Guild show. I've exhibited as a tableholder representing three different knife magazines. I've bought knives there. I've sold knives there. And I've attended as a Honorary member just walking through the door and wandering around. The Guild's highest honor to a non-knifemaker is the Nate Posner Award, and I consider having received that award from the Guild one of my most important honors in 30 years in the knife business.

I have been unable to sleep the night before the Guild show because it was the most exciting and interesting knife event of the year. And in those days it was an event rather than a show.

Every Guild member should be proud to be a member, but ignoring why the Guild Show declined and others thrived is not the solution. One must know the history to avoid making the same mistakes.

The Guild made several total blunders over the years.

1. When Bill Moran came to the Guild as a member and asked them to do something to promote handmade knives, he was ignored. He was left with no choice than to form the ABS.

2. In a time when the ABS welcomed everyone, and wanted to educate and encourage, the Knifemakers Guild Board decided that there were too many knifemakers in the game, so rather than welcome everyone, they chose to try to limit the number of new Guild members. That year they let five new members in--and in turn rejected a ton of other good makers--in particular that year Mike Lovett after George Herron and Jimmy Lile had both asked him to apply. No reason to reject him other than the Guild Board wanted to limit the number of makers.

3. Knifemakers complained about the crowd that would assemble in front of Ernest Emerson's table, or Jess Horn's, and when the movement came along to ensure handmade knives did not use any machined parts (in other words when the knifemakers involved starting worrying more about what the other guy was making instead of increasing the quality of their own knives), the Guild lost a lot of excitement, innovation, and the leading edge of the handmade knife trend with the departure of Ernest and Bob T, among others.

4. A quote from the late Frank Centofante, "This Guild has no honor anymore." This was said after the Guild turned it's back on Jim Weyer in a controversy, after Jim Weyer's photography and books had made the reputation of many of those who had turned on him.

5. When it comes to marketing and publicity, most Guild members are lazy.
Evidenced by the makers who are too busy to send a photo to the Guild website prior to the show. One Italian buyer once mailed the 300 makers from whom they bought each year and asked them to respond in writing how they made their knives, so they could assure their customers that the knives they sold in their exclusive gift shop were indeed handcrafted. Only 150 makers, many of them Guild members, responded. These buyers never bought again from the 150 who had not answered the letter. The next year those buyers moved their buying trip from the Guild show to the Blade Show.

6. When the Blade Show started becoming an event rather than a show, thanks to things like seminars, cutting competitions, and forging demonstrations, the Guild management didn't want anything associated with the show that would take the customers "out of the room."

7. When Mal Melee, Paul Resnick, and Stephen Weiss decided to have an auction in conjunction with the Guild show to try to build the aftermarket (back when the Guild show was in Kansas City), there was a hue and cry that it should never be repeated, again that it took too much "out of the room."

These blunders were not committed by the present Board of the Knifemakers' Guild--but those involved today have to ask themselves how much of the mentality that produced those blunders still exist. That is something they have to answer themselves--and to the collector public.

There have been supporters and customers of the Guild who have dared to offer a suggestion or comment to the Guild membership when the mikes were open for the "Good of the Guild". Most of them are accosted afterward by a Guild member who will remark, "How dare you say something in our meeting--are you a voting member."

The problems that I see with the Guild, having supported the organization as an Honorary member, as a show manager, as an ad agency representing the Guild, and as as observer, is a personality problem. A knifemaker by his nature is a independent cuss. Many are makers because they refuse to work for someone else, and resist advice. (I am much the same way which is one of the reasons I understand the personality traits). Unfortunately a very talented and personable knifemaker with no marketing training does not necessarily have the background to manage, promote, and grow a professional organization. But as independent knifemakers a great many think they have that ability. Clint Eastwood once advised, "A man's got to know his limitations."

When I took the job offered by then Guild President Al Pendray to run the Guild show a few years ago I did something that had never been done before. I polled the honorary members as to what they wanted to see from the Guild. The theory was if we regained the customers, then the makers would follow. What kind of business ignores the wishes of their customers? From that came the Gala, because the customers said they came to shows to associate with the makers rather than to simply buy knives.

One question one might ask of the Guild directors is have they surveyed the Guild customers in the time since? Or has anyone looked at those survey results and made decisions with that on mind? Or is everyone content to have the Guild members themselves divine the wishes of their customers? (Which, dare I utter the word, includes "dealers.")

I tried the challenge of trying to turn the Guild around that Les offers to try. Frankly I didn't succeed.

I would advise that some Guild money spent in the direction of Les would be well spent--but only if those on the receiving end are willing to listen.

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between good advice and criticism. Knifemaking is an ego-centric business. Anything but praise is often misunderstood, such as everyone patting each other after a show and going away thinking that everything is just peachy. Those in charge must have the ability to back off and ask themselves what went wrong, what could be improved,--and what prevented this year's show from being the 450-table extraordinary knife event of the past.

It is a cop out to explained that times have changed. The Blade Show has grown during that same time.

I've witnessed those 450 table Guild shows drawing an international audience and loved those shows. And this past weekend I also attended a Guild show that has been described as a regional show of 150 or so tables. And the fact that the Guild show is still not a 450 table mega-show breaks my heart.

That is not to say there was not effort put forth on the most recent show. There was a lot of hard work expended, and it was evident from the mint juleup cup on each table to the Fraizer award to the Maker's Mark bottle with the Guild logo etched on it. If the Guild boards of the past had paid that much attention to things I wouldn't even be writing this.

I felt The Guild Show in Louisville was better than the three I produced in Orlando, and I have the feeling the show has turned the corner and is in a position to rebuild. But for the Guild to reclaim a 450 table ultimate handmade knife event it is going to take more than a hardworking Board of Directors but in my opinion a fundamental mindset change of the majority of the Guild membership.

Bruce Voyles
 
Mike,

Bullying???

Wow, I had no idea I so upset your "delicate"constitution. And with nothing more than the written word.

In the future I will strive to be more "sensitive" to you and your "feelings".

I have a quick story for you that you will find interesting:

My second day as an Infantry Rifle Platoon Leader in the 101st Airborne. We had a Battalion run, 4 miles, no big deal. Anyway I had to report to the Battalion Commander as I had not formally met him yet. While I was waiting out in the office. I heard him talking with a Captain who had fell out of the Battalion Run. The Battalion Commander asked him if his pussy hurt...as this would probably explain why he fell out of the run. Matter of fact he asked the Sergent Major to get the Captain some Midol ( a medication to relieve menstrual cramps.)

Can you imagine....wow...you would have passed out.

So back to your question.

There were 427 (give or take a couple) tables of custom knives at the show. I included Rick Hinderer's booth in that number.

The Guild Show had 113 (Bill Luckett was listed Twice) custom knife makers (If you count AT...I don't know if he set up as a dealer or a knife maker at this show?)

Note: that 47 of the makers at the Guild Show also set up at the Blade Show.

So while you would miss out seeing 66 makers...you could see almost 44% of the makers attending the Blade Show...at no extra expense or time!

So back to Sidehill's point...if you were wanting to travel to 1 show (and expenses for travel seem to being spent by many collectors for Internet purchases) so that would be a consideration for many collectors.

At this point, from a collectors point of view....there is no contest.

So back to the question, what would you or AT do...........
 
Mike,

I said "don't mess with the Internet" becuase that is a quote from a conversation I had with a knifemaker and it came to mind. The fact is that I know a few very good knifemakers who do not go online and in some cases don't even own a computer.
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I guess you missed what Harry wrote????

No need to "mess" with the Internet...AT ALL.

The maker does not need to go online

The maker does not need to have a computer.

The maker will have to spend some money to have a photograph of their knife...Which is then given or sent to the Guild Secretary. Again, no "messing" with the Internet...None!

Come on Mike get your head in the game.

The Guild needs serious members with executable ideas to help move forward. Not merely a cheerleader.

Still waiting for your ideas and a plan to implement them.
 
Les Robertson said:
What are your suggestions....and implementation plans. To build up the membership and subsequently the table holders at the show?
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Les, I don't even know you but I've been following this thread and am scratching my head wondering why do you feel there is such a problem. I'm a probationary member and there were many others there. I was actually surprised at how many probationary members there were. I talked to one knifemaker interested in joining and Rob Hudson and I talked to a young knifemaker showing his fine work if he would qualify. To have more table holders all they need to do is find more room which has already been discussed. The move to Louisville obviously was excepted beyond what anyone expected that it sold out and has a waiting list. I think I heard someone say it was three fourths sold out for next year when the show ended. I know I didn't waste any time signing up.

I thought the show was fine and enjoyed the whole week, it was the best show I've been to all year. I heard one person say it was the best show they had in years.
 
Bruce, you make some good points. I respect you and your opinions as you have always been courteous and respectful to me. I also very much respect your knowledge and experience even though I don't agree with everything you said.

Yes, the Guild apparently has made blunders in the past. Provided they have learned from them, it is in the past. I think they have learned from them. I don't see the Guild trying to exclude any qualified makers or ABS makers to so I would say they have learned. From my experience, the board and membership has been open to ideas and suggestions even before I was a voting member.

Sure there are personality conflicts. There are people on boths sides of the fence bearing old grudes that they just can't let go of.

I disagree about hiring Les to promote the Guild I would certainly vote against it. I cannot see hiring our most vocal critic and someone who very obviously has a grudge against the Guild to represent or promote the Guild. It is an old con game for someone to be your most vocal and biggest opponent unless you hire them and pay them shut up. Sometimes it works.

I agree that the Guild website is very much under utilized. I hope we can turn that around. Being someone who is very much into the Internet it has been a point of frustration for me.

If the Guild someday grows back into a 300-400 table show I guess that would be good in some ways if it works out that way. There are pros and cons to it. As I said earlier, I like the more relaxed one-on-one atmosphere of the smaller show. More tables means the money gets spread around more. More makers get a little piece, fewer get a big piece.

The Guild show for many is more about quality than quantity. Some of the best makers only bring a handful of knives to the show but they are exceptional works of craftsmanship. I'm sure most could have more easily cranked out 50 knives that didn't have the time and effort invested in them.

It's the same with table holders. Most are long-time very experienced knifemakers who have made a name for themselves. You see few beginners at the Guild show.

We do have some people involved with marketing and promotion experience. New ideas and promotions were implemented this year. One of the things I liked best about the show this year was seeing all of the newcomers to the show.

In every organization that I have ever been involved with, and there have been quite a few, there are always a few people who are working hard and driving forward. There are a lot more who sit in the back and never raise their hands. When there is grumbling, guess which group it usually comes from.

Les keeps demanding details about future plans and ignoring the improvements and changes that have already been implemented. I feel no obligation to answer to Les but of course new ideas plans are being discussed.

No matter what we do or where we go somebody is going to gripe about it, especially those who have been griping about it for the last 15 years.
 
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By the way folks, this thread is about THIS YEARS Knifemaker's Guild Show. I would appreciate it if we could get it back on track.

Those who want to debate the poilitics and past history of the Guild please start another thread to do so.
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
By the way folks, this thread is about THIS YEARS Knifemaker's Guild Show. I would appreciate it if we could get it back on track.

Those who want to debate the poilitics and past history of the Guild please start another thread to do so.
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,"
George Santayana.
 
Those who cannot make knives are condemned to buying and selling them, and of course bitching about those that do actually make knives. Or so it seems.
 
Mike , thanks for your thoughts and picts of the show. It helps those of us that couldn't make it , start to plan of how we can make it there next year... this is a show I really want to make it to.

but why was Uncle Kit giving you the stink eye look in that picture ?
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
Mike , thanks for your thoughts and picts of the show. It helps those of us that couldn't make it , start to plan of how we can make it there next year... this is a show I really want to make it to.

but why was Uncle Kit giving you the stink eye look in that picture ?
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:D I wondered about that too.

Although we had talked on the phone and emailed, this was the first time I had met Kit. I have no excuse when he lives so close to me and has invited me to his shop but it just never happened. What a great guy and a real gentleman.

I hope to see you next year.
 
TennKnifeman said:
My first Guild show...
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Bruce that was a excellent post you made. Thanks for taking the time.

Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
If the Guild someday grows back into a 300-400 table show I guess that would be good in some ways if it works out that way. There are pros and cons to it. As I said earlier, I like the more relaxed one-on-one atmosphere of the smaller show. More tables means the money gets spread around more. More makers get a little piece, fewer get a big piece.
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I posted earlier on how well the guild show was. Guess you missed it. I said the average maker sold 7-10 knives. I think that was a ton of knives sold by todays standards. Did you find out how many knives were sold at this show?

The Guild show fell from grace after it moved from Orlando to Las Vegas.
During that time the Blade show moved its show date closer to the Guild show to put a bigger nail in the coffin. The Guild show has since tried to move the show date away from the Blade show which is a good thing.

Biggest factors today effecting the Guild show is the number of attendees, customers willing and able to buy knives, and number of top named makers with knives available.

From comment in this thread the present guild show had a lot of probationary members. How many people that attended this years show were probationary? Even more important how many were top makers?

And again how many knives were sold at the show? Makers will not go back to a show unless they are selling. If there are few buyers as you suggest then something needs to be done to get the buyers attention so they fork out the money to make the trip and buy knives. In its prime the guild show was selling about 4,000-5,000 knives a show. There were very few unhappy makers during this time. Only complaints were the distance to travel to the show by some makers. Most customers were very happy.

You say to stay on subject. The subject is this years show and how well it did. How can you compare how well it did unless you compare it to past shows?
 
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