Knives Made in China thoughts?

[flash900]

I've never particularly had any national loyalty when it comes to craftsmanship.

I balance a number of factors. First, the product has to meet my requirements for quality and function. Price and availability come after that.

I have specifically had quality problems with most of the stuff I've bought that was made in Pakistan, although not all of it. I have a skinner and a sodbuster that somehow got made right. I have had any number of other pieces made there that were simply crap. This has led me to implement a personal policy of "nothing from Pakistan."

I have had quality problems with even more stuff from China, and this is the result of buying known trusted brands (many of them American brands) with the production performed in China. My first such unpleasant experience was with Gerber. I have several older Gerber pieces dating from the '70s and '80s with which I am quite happy. Some of them were made here, some were made in Japan. Good stuff. And then some time after 2000 I went shopping for Gerber knives again, only to discover the company was now under new ownership, and the bulk of the production was being done in China. I bought some pieces. A few were good, and I was happy to have and use them. The bulk of them were . . . less good. Not long after that, I implemented a new personal policy of "buy Gerber with extra caution,"

I continued to shop around for decent stuff.

I remembered that I had an old Mora knife in a tool box, something I'd picked up in Sweden in 1973. A simple but elegant knife that got sharp and stayed sharp. Never had a problem with it. So I went shopping for more Mora blades. I was pleasantly surprised. They were still being made in Sweden, the quality was still excellent, and the prices were very good. I implemented a personal policy of "buy Mora knives for excellent value."

I picked up some pieces made in Germany. I was generally happy with them, although there was some quality inconsistency and pricing tended to vary a bit. I adopted an indifferent policy on German pieces. I buy them or not on a case-by-case basis.

I got some Opinels. For the price, I found them to be consistently good quality. Personal policy: "buy Opinels for good value." I don't have a lot of exposure to other French products, so there is no general policy for France.

I found that buying US-made knives was not a guarantee of quality.

I bought some Bear & Sons stockman pattern knives. They sucked. They simply would. Not. Hold. An. Edge. And so, I proceed with caution on Bear & Sons knives.

I bought some Case knives. I found them to be of consistently good quality, especially those in CV steel. I find myself favorably inclined toward Case knives.

I was given some knives as gifts with brands like Winchester and Remington. They were consistently awful. They were also made in China.

I acquired several knives made in Finland. Consistently good quality. Some were a bit "Spartan" in terms of fit & finish, but the steel was always good, and the edge was always very good. I'm a big fan of knives made in Finland.

I bought some Buck knives. There were some mixed results, but in the main I found them to be reliably well made and of superior quality and function. Some time later I moved to Idaho, only a few miles from the Buck Knives factory. I became personally acquainted with their customer service quality and picked up several more pieces. I also got some of their Chinese production pieces.

Oddly, where some other big names were making their stuff in China and getting crap results, Buck was getting good results. There was evidently significantly greater attention paid to QC in the Buck production than in some others.

I adopted a Buck Knives policy: "buy Buck with confidence whether domestic or import, but prefer the domestic product since it keeps the local factory in business."

I found that Kershaw knives made in the US and Japan were of consistently good quality. I found that their Chinese production was not as consistent as their US & Japanese stuff.

I found that Boker's German and Argentina production was good stuff, while their Asian import brand pretty much sucked.

I have a couple of pieces made in Canada. They're pretty good. I don't have enough exposure to the Canadian production to have an opinion yet.

I found that knives made in Taiwan generally had better fit & finish and those made in China (with specific brand exceptions).

So my made-somewhere-in-Asia policy favors Taiwan, but also certain specific brands (like Buck and a few others) out of China.

My made-in-the-USA policy tends to favor well-known brands. And, given that certain companies -- big names in knife making -- had their quality go right down the toilet after the company name was sold (e.g. Schrade -> Taylor), I tend to shop for those specific brands on the used market to get their older US production pieces.

There are any number of brands for which I don't have an actual example in hand, but which I would happily trust based on the observations of people I have come to trust (like several here on this board). I would buy a Spyderco, a Benchmade, or a Bark River without hesitation. I have had good luck with Ka-Bar and Ontario, but I would also buy from ESEE or Becker without hesitation, based on the reviews I've seen here.


Quality is where you find it.

No nation owns it.

It's a function of personal commitment on the part of the maker or the manufacturer.

There are brands I've trusted in the past, but which I don't trust right now. That can always change.

Right now I find that there is no shortage of brands making quality gear.

And many of them are making their product on US soil.

Well said -- and good info here. Thanks.

 

[Robert.B]

Cost of making anything in US is much higher than to make in Peoples Republic of China due to various expenses (government regulations, labor cost, rent/ mortgage and so on). When American manufacturers are pressed to cut their cost to get their price close to Chinese made goods, there are few possible outcomes, and one of them is decreased quality. Still I wouldn't blame workers. I am working in manufacturing over 20 years and most of the people doing a good job and are taking pride in their job. Mostly quality loss happen due to process change. Shorter cycle time, increasing tool life, removing finishing steps and so on.
I am not buying poorly made American knives and I am not asking you or anybody to do so. I am buying quality knives made in US or some other countries, with which we have fair trade exchange. I was trying to explain reasons of higher cost of knives made in US, Europe, and Japan to compare with China, possible causes of quality loss, and outcome of from switching from "buy made in US" to "buy cheap".

I've been a machinist over 10 years, I know about cost cuts and tooling issues...but I have never sent anything from my machine out of tolerance, its my reputation on the line if I do. I enjoy buying US made, especially if its a small time business, but it saddens me that so called US institution cutlers like Case and Queen are failing the consumers.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

It always seems like these USA verus China threads end up comparing apples to oranges. A $400 Sebenza may be a super American made knife but it isn't a everyday 3 blade stockman. Case against Rough Rider would be a better comparision and it was an American that taught the Chinese how to make those slip-joints.

 

[Thomas W]

but it saddens me that so called US institution cutlers like Case and Queen are failing the consumers.

Failing how?

...but in the cutlery industry for some years now we see mass numbers of rejects hitting the market, regardless if they have good warranty or not paying over 80 - 100 should get you a pretty decent knife but its not.

Mass numbers of rejects? Link please, otherwise what are you talking about?

 

[Robert.B]

Failing how?

Mass numbers of rejects? Link please, otherwise what are you talking about?

Failing to provide a knife free of defects that make the knife unusable or requiring to be sent back when purchasing sight unseen (ie. from an online vendor).

links? do a search of these forums where quite a few see the dwindling QC of Case and Queen. I'm providing my experience and the issues I see posted frequently in the traditional section with 2 old cutlers in the US. There is a reason not many people wanted queen back on board for the traditional bladeforums knives, and being a moderator i'm sure you are fluent enough to find posts such as "Case quality issues" or "Tell me about Queen Cutlery" to help you understand my point of view. I have purchased from both, none under $50 and all with issues requiring warranty work.

It always seems like these USA verus China threads end up comparing apples to oranges. A $400 Sebenza may be a super American made knife but it isn't a everyday 3 blade stockman. Case against Rough Rider would be a better comparision and it was an American that taught the Chinese how to make those slip-joints.

From a price standpoint though they are apples and oranges...an RR knife can be around $10 now days with similar steel performance to case, but you'd pay an extra $30 to $100 for a Case knife.

 

[Thomas W]

Failing to provide a knife free of defects that make the knife unusable or requiring to be sent back when purchasing sight unseen (ie. from an online vendor).

links? do a search of these forums where quite a few see the dwindling QC of Case and Queen. I'm providing my experience and the issues I see posted frequently in the traditional section with 2 old cutlers in the US. There is a reason not many people wanted queen back on board for the traditional bladeforums knives, and being a moderator i'm sure you are fluent enough to find posts such as "Case quality issues" or "Tell me about Queen Cutlery" to help you understand my point of view. I have purchased from both, none under $50 and all with issues requiring warranty work.

What percentage of members/posts/threads here on BF's make up sales at these two manufacturers? When you mention mass, you make it sound like it's the majority, of which I find nearly impossible. Perhaps a better way to phrase may be in order?

 

[Robert.B]

Better wording could have been applied to a generalization, but "mass" in your definition does apply to the butter knife state all queen knives are sent out with in the past 2 - 3 years, their grinds went from acceptable to something I would expect from a 90 day probation period apprentice...I sent my BF2010 knife for side x side play and they destroyed the profile I put on it (even when my note with the knife said to leave my grind as is) and sent it back completely dull. It doesn't do much for their reputation to send out a warranty issue knife with more issues.

 

[Thomas W]

Better wording could have been applied to a generalization, but "mass" in your definition does apply to the butter knife state all queen knives are sent out with in the past 2 - 3 years, their grinds went from acceptable to something I would expect from a 90 day probation period apprentice...I sent my BF2010 knife for side x side play and they destroyed the profile I put on it (even when my note with the knife said to leave my grind as is) and sent it back completely dull. It doesn't do much for their reputation to send out a warranty issue knife with more issues.

Just trying to keep it in perspective.

 

[frenchmade]

There is an argument that keeps coming up here something along the lines of "I prefer to buy american-made knives to support american workers and the american dollar..." and so on.
Unless you are buying from a company that manufactures EXCLUSIVELY in the US then your condition is useless.
Say you prefer to buy only kershaws or benchmades that are made in the US for that reason. Do you think that the profits that these companies make from your purchase will go directly to the dude who assembled YOUR knife? No! It's not like kershaw is dividing up all of their earnings and paying each worker individually with money that they made specifically for that company.
What I'm saying is, if you buy an american-made kershaw, the money that you spend is still going to go towards paying chinese workers and building chinese factories! So what's the point? You are not single-handedly saving the american economy by buying an American benchmade.



On another note, how do people feel about buying knives made in Canada?

 

[Robert.B]

On another note, how do people feel about buying knives made in Canada?

you just opened up a can of worms!!! *exits stage left*

 

[Seaner]

I am not sure where you heard this or how you came to this conclusion. When you buying American made goods you certainly subsidize American environmental laws (you want clean air and water, right?) and support American workers, who in exchange support you and the rest of American people, because manufacturing workers paying taxes and buying goods and services from the rest of Americans. It doesn't matter what you do or will do for living, this is Americans, who will support you.
When Americans manufacturing companies go out of business and workers go on unemployment (about 10 million or more manufacturing jobs are lost), than you certainly subsidies these people. Please, keep this in mind.

I'm not an American, so no, my tax dollars would not subsidize workers who are (unfortunately) out of a job if their factory shuts down. To reiterate, as a consumer I see no sense in economically supporting a firm who does not produce a lower-cost good, nor a higher-quality good. Myself and many others lose twice over and instead of being forced to innovate that firm is propped up and allowed to stagnate.

The free market is obviously a very volatile place and if a company can't compete or occupy a niche, well them's the breaks.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

[ . . . ]

Unless you are buying from a company that manufactures EXCLUSIVELY in the US then your condition is useless.
Say you prefer to buy only kershaws or benchmades that are made in the US for that reason. Do you think that the profits that these companies make from your purchase will go directly to the dude who assembled YOUR knife? No! It's not like kershaw is dividing up all of their earnings and paying each worker individually with money that they made specifically for that company.
What I'm saying is, if you buy an american-made kershaw, the money that you spend is still going to go towards paying chinese workers and building chinese factories! So what's the point? You are not single-handedly saving the american economy by buying an American benchmade.

[ . . . ]

There may be some validity in what you say, but there is also validity in the concept that a company will tend to keep a division open if that division produces something that sells well.

If every Buck Stockman that sold was one of the Asian productions, and if none of the American production Stockman knives sold, standard management practices (at least as I have observed them) would lead to increasing the production in the line that's selling, and shutting down the production that's not.

I could be wrong about this, however having spent some little time as a business analyst in another life, I have some acquaintance with the reinforcement of profitable production and the pruning back of that which is unprofitable.

Part of my job was identifying problem hot spots where things were not moving well and finding ways to fix them, as our own policies did not include shutting down problem areas, but rather identifying and repairing the actual problems.

To remain viable, a company has to produce what sells. Buck knives continues to produce the 110 because, quite simply, it continues to sell. If the 110 sales suddenly tanked, the company wouldn't be able to keep cranking them out in hopes that somehow making more would kick start their profitability. The 110 is made in Post Falls, Idaho. As long as the 110 sells, there are jobs in Post Falls, Idaho for the people making that knife. Now, the foregoing statement is predicated on the idea that the Buck boys would never take the 110 offshore. From my conversations with the folks at Buck, I think I can safely say that the 110 will be staying here.

I understand that there are companies that don't insist that individual business units pay for themselves with their own profitability. That can be supported in the short term, but in the long run it fails. If, as a company, you subsidize an unprofitable division without some compelling structural reason, that will eventually end badly.

Consequently, if Buck makes two knives (of comparable value) that I like, and one is imported while the other is domestic, I will tend to favor supporting the domestic business unit.

I'm placing my faith in their business sense, that they will tend to support profitable production units.

 

[winchester73]

I have some Rough Rider knives and they seem to be pretty good knives. Question for any who have used them. Are the Taylor Schrade knives any good?. I have read where the slipjoints are not very well made but the fixed blades are not bad.