Knives Made in China thoughts?

[Dagon]

Following the logic of many people here, I should only buy European knives.

Well, around 50% of my knives are European as the style usually suits me best, but applying the logic of buying local stuff I should never have bought any of my 35+ Spydercos which i dearly love, well I could have bought only the Volpe which was made in Italy. Those who would not buy a foreign brand, please explain why me not buying a Spyderco would be a good thing.

ps about:

Not as far as knives are concerned. I've found that American knives are much nicer than European knives at any price point (unless you live in Europe and import taxes come into play).

I take it you've never seen a Fontenille-Pataud or a Klotzli or a Lion Steel SR-1 or an EKA.

 

[Seaner]

I refuse to subsidize American companies that produce a sub-bar product and take advantage of the "buy American" attitude. I'll vote with my dollar, if a domestic firm can't crank out a quality product then the foreign producer is going to get my business.

 

[brets-ftw]

Not as far as knives are concerned. I've found that American knives are much nicer than European knives at any price point (unless you live in Europe and import taxes come into play).

I'll put my mora against any fixed blade, same with my opinel for pure slicing capabilities

 

[Tsujigiri]

I take it you've never seen a Fontenille-Pataud or a Klotzli or a Lion Steel SR-1 or an EKA.

I didn't say that there are no nice European knives; I said that if you live in America, you get better quality for the price with American knives. There are exceptions, but that still stands as a general rule. For an example, Klötzli's are very well made, but for the same price here you could get a CRK which has the same precision, but a huge upgrade in steel. I'm happy to get European knives when I can find good deals, but often the exchange of the Euro to the Dollar makes European knives hard to justify. I have to admit I envy some of the knives I've seen you Europeans have readily available from your channel; some of them are quite interesting. But you have to understand that there's a reason why they aren't as popular here compared to American knives; we don't have to pay $100 for even a Spyderco Tenacious, like I've heard some Scandinavians have to.

I'll put my mora against any fixed blade, same with my opinel for pure slicing capabilities

That's not really an apt comparison. Slicing ability isn't related to the quality of the knife; they just have thinner blades. I could say that I'd put a thick United Cutlery fantasy knife against any Mora for pure batoning capability, and there's a good chance it might baton better than a thin Mora. But of course I'd still think the Mora's the better knife.

 

[crunch9876]

A Chinese knife can be every bit as good as an American knife if the quality control is the same but it isn't because people buy stuff made in china. Ecuador its cheaper and to provide cheap items they have to cut corners somewhere.

 

[A. G. Russell]

A Chinese knife can be every bit as good as an American knife if the quality control is the same but it isn't because people buy stuff made in china. Ecuador its cheaper and to provide cheap items they have to cut corners somewhere.

I am sorry, this post confuses me. Are knives being produced in Ecuador?

 

[LX_Emergency]

Don't buy Chinese crap. Buy USA! China is great for building big walls and making food. The rest is just rip off and Fucking crap.

That's right. You shouldn't buy chinese crap. Only chinese high quality goods. This man understands completely :stupid:

 

[Robert.B]

I am sorry, this post confuses me. Are knives being produced in Ecuador?

I have read they make a variety of knives and machetes...never seen any though, would like to and see what style they generally are making.

 

[bh49]

I refuse to subsidize American companies that produce a sub-bar product and take advantage of the "buy American" attitude. I'll vote with my dollar, if a domestic firm can't crank out a quality product then the foreign producer is going to get my business.

I am not sure where you heard this or how you came to this conclusion. When you buying American made goods you certainly subsidize American environmental laws (you want clean air and water, right?) and support American workers, who in exchange support you and the rest of American people, because manufacturing workers paying taxes and buying goods and services from the rest of Americans. It doesn't matter what you do or will do for living, this is Americans, who will support you.
When Americans manufacturing companies go out of business and workers go on unemployment (about 10 million or more manufacturing jobs are lost), than you certainly subsidies these people. Please, keep this in mind.

 

[Robert.B]

I am not sure where you heard this or how you came to this conclusion. When you buying American made goods you certainly subsidize American environmental laws (you want clean air and water, right?) and support American workers, who in exchange support you and the rest of American people, because manufacturing workers paying taxes and buying goods and services from the rest of Americans. It doesn't matter what you do or will do for living, this is Americans, who will support you.
When Americans manufacturing companies go out of business and workers go on unemployment (about 10 million or more manufacturing jobs are lost), than you certainly subsidies these people. Please, keep this in mind.

Tell these workers to have some pride in their work and stop cranking out poor products then or they should lose their job...if I went to work and made poor product I'd expect to get fired but in the cutlery industry for some years now we see mass numbers of rejects hitting the market, regardless if they have good warranty or not paying over 80 - 100 should get you a pretty decent knife but its not.

 

[tonystl]

I didn't set out to do this, but every knife I have was made in the USA. I'm not against buying knives made elsewhere, and I have in the past. But all the knives I've traded away or sold have been foreign made.

Made in USA may not mean the knife is better than those produced elsewhere, but I like the fact that I helped an American company employ American workers making a quality, lifetime guaranteed product.

My current job is dependent on small businesses making money and employing Americans. If I can buy American, then I will.

 

[Ken44]

We have plenty of great knife companies to choose from here in the USA. More than any nation I would say.
If we didn't I could see not trying to help our country, and the many great people here that really need work. I would rather give my money to US workers over China's.

 

[bh49]

Tell these workers to have some pride in their work and stop cranking out poor products then or they should lose their job...if I went to work and made poor product I'd expect to get fired

Cost of making anything in US is much higher than to make in Peoples Republic of China due to various expenses (government regulations, labor cost, rent/ mortgage and so on). When American manufacturers are pressed to cut their cost to get their price close to Chinese made goods, there are few possible outcomes, and one of them is decreased quality. Still I wouldn't blame workers. I am working in manufacturing over 20 years and most of the people doing a good job and are taking pride in their job. Mostly quality loss happen due to process change. Shorter cycle time, increasing tool life, removing finishing steps and so on.
I am not buying poorly made American knives and I am not asking you or anybody to do so. I am buying quality knives made in US or some other countries, with which we have fair trade exchange. I was trying to explain reasons of higher cost of knives made in US, Europe, and Japan to compare with China, possible causes of quality loss, and outcome of from switching from "buy made in US" to "buy cheap".

 

[brets-ftw]

That's not really an apt comparison. Slicing ability isn't related to the quality of the knife; they just have thinner blades. I could say that I'd put a thick United Cutlery fantasy knife against any Mora for pure batoning capability, and there's a good chance it might baton better than a thin Mora. But of course I'd still think the Mora's the better knife.

Ok, let me edit, as I seem to have made a bit of a bold statement. I will pit my mora against any other american made fixed blade within the same price range through a variety of tests covering ergos, tasks, and overall F&F, and every time I will bet my money on the mora coming out on top.


As to the opinel, I believe slicing ability does in fact reflect the quality. Show me an american made knife that will have the same stock thickness and light convexing that opinel's do in their price range. This alone would knock out so many companies and not to mention their F&F has always seemed a but higher if not on par with SAK's; a company consistently hailed as the F&F king

you know what, let's add SAK's to the mix. show me a multitool/multi-use knife that competes with the SAK at their price range (keep in mind Wenger is owned by Victorinox)

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

Ok, let me edit, as I seem to have made a bit of a bold statement. I will pit my mora against any other american made fixed blade within the same price range through a variety of tests covering ergos, tasks, materials and overall F&F, and every time I will bet my money on the mora coming out on top.


As to the opinel, I believe slicing ability does in fact reflect the quality. Show me an american made knife that will have the same stock thickness and light convexing that opinel's do in their price range. This alone would knock out so many companies and not to mention their F&F has always seemed a but higher if not on par with SAK's; a company consistently hailed as the F&F king

you know what, let's add SAK's to the mix. show me a multitool/multi-use knife that competes with the SAK at their price range (keep in mind Wenger is owned by Swissbianco)

Are you sure Wenger is owned by Swissbianco? Last I heard Victorinox still owned the brand but I guess that could have changed.

 

[Robs92XJ]

I think now you're talking more about design philosophy than production quality. For example, I prefer minimalist, clean designs with thin blades, acute edges, and nice natural materials. That philosophy seems to be under-represented in American designs, which have a tendency towards bigger, thicker, indestructible type knives. That is consistent with our national personality, which is also displayed in things like car designs, movies, houses, etc. It's not a bad thing, it's just a different approach. Progressive, you could say, embracing the modern. But my taste is more in line with European (particularly scandinavian) knife designs, so most of my knives are foreign. It has nothing to do with quality, I believe the American makers are at least as good as any other when it comes to heat treat, fit and finish, etc.

As for the Chinese, I do not completely trust their quality, yet. I have bad memories of crappy automotive parts with soft steel that would not hold threads without stripping, did not fit correctly, etc. This carries over into my perception of their knives. However, early returns on a Spyderco Kiwi with 8Cr13MoV steel suggest they are getting better. I think they will continue improving their quality, following the national trajectory of Japan and South Korea. I think of today's Japan as a high-quality producer, but through the 1970s Americans thought of them much like they think of the Chinese now. The same with Korea; in 1990 Hyundai was a joke to Americans, but now they are becoming well respected as high-quality high-value cars, much like Toyota/Lexus was 20 years ago.

The Chinese have an ancient tradition of innovation and craftsmanship. Unfortunately their culture was ravaged by imperialism and then communism, and they are only now beginning to re-establish themselves as competetive producers of goods. At the rate they are advancing, it won't be long before their quality is on par with Western nations. Of course, at that point they will no longer be able to remain the world's cheap producer like they have been. This is already beginning to happen in some industries. Places like Malaysia, Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, or Latin America will become the new China.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

I've never particularly had any national loyalty when it comes to craftsmanship.

I balance a number of factors. First, the product has to meet my requirements for quality and function. Price and availability come after that.

I have specifically had quality problems with most of the stuff I've bought that was made in Pakistan, although not all of it. I have a skinner and a sodbuster that somehow got made right. I have had any number of other pieces made there that were simply crap. This has led me to implement a personal policy of "nothing from Pakistan."

I have had quality problems with even more stuff from China, and this is the result of buying known trusted brands (many of them American brands) with the production performed in China. My first such unpleasant experience was with Gerber. I have several older Gerber pieces dating from the '70s and '80s with which I am quite happy. Some of them were made here, some were made in Japan. Good stuff. And then some time after 2000 I went shopping for Gerber knives again, only to discover the company was now under new ownership, and the bulk of the production was being done in China. I bought some pieces. A few were good, and I was happy to have and use them. The bulk of them were . . . less good. Not long after that, I implemented a new personal policy of "buy Gerber with extra caution,"

I continued to shop around for decent stuff.

I remembered that I had an old Mora knife in a tool box, something I'd picked up in Sweden in 1973. A simple but elegant knife that got sharp and stayed sharp. Never had a problem with it. So I went shopping for more Mora blades. I was pleasantly surprised. They were still being made in Sweden, the quality was still excellent, and the prices were very good. I implemented a personal policy of "buy Mora knives for excellent value."

I picked up some pieces made in Germany. I was generally happy with them, although there was some quality inconsistency and pricing tended to vary a bit. I adopted an indifferent policy on German pieces. I buy them or not on a case-by-case basis.

I got some Opinels. For the price, I found them to be consistently good quality. Personal policy: "buy Opinels for good value." I don't have a lot of exposure to other French products, so there is no general policy for France.

I found that buying US-made knives was not a guarantee of quality.

I bought some Bear & Sons stockman pattern knives. They sucked. They simply would. Not. Hold. An. Edge. And so, I proceed with caution on Bear & Sons knives.

I bought some Case knives. I found them to be of consistently good quality, especially those in CV steel. I find myself favorably inclined toward Case knives.

I was given some knives as gifts with brands like Winchester and Remington. They were consistently awful. They were also made in China.

I acquired several knives made in Finland. Consistently good quality. Some were a bit "Spartan" in terms of fit & finish, but the steel was always good, and the edge was always very good. I'm a big fan of knives made in Finland.

I bought some Buck knives. There were some mixed results, but in the main I found them to be reliably well made and of superior quality and function. Some time later I moved to Idaho, only a few miles from the Buck Knives factory. I became personally acquainted with their customer service quality and picked up several more pieces. I also got some of their Chinese production pieces.

Oddly, where some other big names were making their stuff in China and getting crap results, Buck was getting good results. There was evidently significantly greater attention paid to QC in the Buck production than in some others.

I adopted a Buck Knives policy: "buy Buck with confidence whether domestic or import, but prefer the domestic product since it keeps the local factory in business."

I found that Kershaw knives made in the US and Japan were of consistently good quality. I found that their Chinese production was not as consistent as their US & Japanese stuff.

I found that Boker's German and Argentina production was good stuff, while their Asian import brand pretty much sucked.

I have a couple of pieces made in Canada. They're pretty good. I don't have enough exposure to the Canadian production to have an opinion yet.

I found that knives made in Taiwan generally had better fit & finish and those made in China (with specific brand exceptions).

So my made-somewhere-in-Asia policy favors Taiwan, but also certain specific brands (like Buck and a few others) out of China.

My made-in-the-USA policy tends to favor well-known brands. And, given that certain companies -- big names in knife making -- had their quality go right down the toilet after the company name was sold (e.g. Schrade -> Taylor), I tend to shop for those specific brands on the used market to get their older US production pieces.

There are any number of brands for which I don't have an actual example in hand, but which I would happily trust based on the observations of people I have come to trust (like several here on this board). I would buy a Spyderco, a Benchmade, or a Bark River without hesitation. I have had good luck with Ka-Bar and Ontario, but I would also buy from ESEE or Becker without hesitation, based on the reviews I've seen here.


Quality is where you find it.

No nation owns it.

It's a function of personal commitment on the part of the maker or the manufacturer.

There are brands I've trusted in the past, but which I don't trust right now. That can always change.

Right now I find that there is no shortage of brands making quality gear.

And many of them are making their product on US soil.

 

[JBK2596]

I would prefer US becuase i LIVE HERE!
but anyone that says nothing good comes from china is ignorant and full of...Well, You know what.

 

[brets-ftw]

Are you sure Wenger is owned by Swissbianco? Last I heard Victorinox still owned the brand but I guess that could have changed.

Your probably right. I thought Victorinox was a subsidiary of Swissbianco. TBH I'm not too familiar with SAK's/ SAK company family trees (with the exception of the Wenger Evolution and Vic Cadet) as I use a leatherman more often then anything, but that's because I constantly work on my motorcycle and pliers are far more viable there then most SAKs which I consider to be more of an office/camping utensil then workshop. (that being said my understanding would be biased as it points towards LM for my purposes vs. comparing SAKs and LM to something that both can accomplish)

I think now you're talking more about design philosophy than production quality. For example, I prefer minimalist, clean designs with thin blades, acute edges, and nice natural materials. That philosophy seems to be under-represented in American designs, which have a tendency towards bigger, thicker, indestructible type knives. That is consistent with our national personality, which is also displayed in things like car designs, movies, houses, etc. It's not a bad thing, it's just a different approach. Progressive, you could say, embracing the modern. But my taste is more in line with European (particularly scandinavian) knife designs, so most of my knives are foreign. It has nothing to do with quality, I believe the American makers are at least as good as any other when it comes to heat treat, fit and finish, etc.

As for the Chinese, I do not completely trust their quality, yet. I have bad memories of crappy automotive parts with soft steel that would not hold threads without stripping, did not fit correctly, etc. This carries over into my perception of their knives. However, early returns on a Spyderco Kiwi with 8Cr13MoV steel suggest they are getting better. I think they will continue improving their quality, following the national trajectory of Japan and South Korea. I think of today's Japan as a high-quality producer, but through the 1970s Americans thought of them much like they think of the Chinese now. The same with Korea; in 1990 Hyundai was a joke to Americans, but now they are becoming well respected as high-quality high-value cars, much like Toyota/Lexus was 20 years ago.

The Chinese have an ancient tradition of innovation and craftsmanship. Unfortunately their culture was ravaged by imperialism and then communism, and they are only now beginning to re-establish themselves as competetive producers of goods. At the rate they are advancing, it won't be long before their quality is on par with Western nations. Of course, at that point they will no longer be able to remain the world's cheap producer like they have been. This is already beginning to happen in some industries. Places like Malaysia, Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, or Latin America will become the new China.

My point was to show that, it doesn't take a boat load of money to create a decent knife, especially when one compares country to country. If a company can produce a product that works well, and does so by using a time honored style, so be it. Both Traditional and modern have their place but I find this to not be a factor when deciding a product that will be on a "working man's" budget.

Yes, american companies seem to be pushing the idea that "bigger/tankier/overly built is better" but that doesn't mean it immediately becomes taboo to produce a simple knife that can do the job. If that means skipping on the lock stop, not using the latest and greatest steel, or god forbid make a knife that cant be used a pry bar so be it. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that regardless of preference towards one style or another (modern vs. Traditional), ergonomics, fit and finish and performance of tasks should be held at the utmost ideal when designing a knife.


I just finished my run so I'm a little light-headed and this might not answer everything, but I promise the point is in there somewhere

 

[Sonnydaze]

I think they would be great if they kept them in China. We are seeing fraudulent copies of Chris Reeves Knives here in the U.S.
Sonnytoo