Knives of Cassius M Clay of Kentucky (1810-1903)

[Jack Black]

That knife does not look like any Russian dress daggers or presentational knives I've ever seen, I would imagine it would have Cyrillic inscriptions on it as well-but we can't see the other side of the blade. I suggest contacting makandr who posts on the Levine Forum, has a monumental collection of knives and is Russian. He'd be able to shed light on this one I'm certain.

Personally, I don't think it's Russian at all Will, it is in every way a Verijero, and if it is not a forgery, I suspect it is one that Mr Clay had made on his travels or which someone gifted him. What surprises me is that the authors of the knife collector's guide in which I came across it do not comment on its form

 

[knarfeng]

Personally, I don't think it's Russian at all Will, it is in every way a Verijero, and if it is not a forgery, I suspect it is one that Mr Clay had made on his travels or which someone gifted him. What surprises me is that the authors of the knife collector's guide in which I came across it do not comment on its form

I agree, Jack. It doesn't look "Russian". It looks like a "gaucho knife".

 

[Jack Black]

It's nice to be able to introduce Mr Clay to some of US members! :thumbup:

I dare say that the other Mr Clay owned a pocket knife or two in his day, particularly as a boy growing up in Louisville

 

[RobertJ1]

I was just perusing and reading on a dedicated Cuchillos criollos (Verijero & Puñales) site. Some of the criollos are gorgeous. Much like yours Jack and some are even further embellished with gold and such. Very beautiful and ornate pieces of cutlery history. It was very neat reading how they relate and are very similar to the Bowie knives that we all know commonly.

 

[Jack Black]

I agree, Jack. It doesn't look "Russian". It looks like a "gaucho knife".

Absolutely Frank. I guess the Tsar might have simply encountered Gaucho knives and liked the look of them, or perhaps Mr Clay had expressed an interest in them, but unless there is some aspect like that we simply don't know about, it all seems a bit fanciful to me.

 

[Jack Black]

If anyone missed the link in my second post, there's some fascinating history, and beautiful photographs of all manner of Gaucho knives at: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html I'm glad it has proved of interest :thumbup:

EDIT - I suspect that Gaucho knives would be fantastic to collect, but like old Bowie knives, a quick route to bankruptcy!

 

[GasMan1]

I'm a bit embarrassed to say I didn't know anything about "that" Mr. Clay either. Very interesting story though. And a most beautifully made knife.
I got a bit excited when I read the title as well. I thought boxing and knives had crossed paths.
Unlikely, I know.

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[Jack Black]

Here's a few links in relation to Cassius Marcellus Clay. Plenty more info out there :thumbup:

Cassius Marcellus Clay (Wikipedia entry) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Marcellus_Clay_(politician)

A KENTUCKY GLADIATOR. General Cassius M. Clay Talks of His Duels and Fights - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cassius-marcellus-clay-kentucky.html

The Cassius Clay-Sam Brown Fight; An Eyewitness Account - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cassius-clay-sam-brown-fight-eyewitness.html

Who Owns Cassius M. Clay's Bowie Knives? - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/who-owns-cassius-m-clays-bowie-knives.html

Cassius Marcellus Clay: Firebrand of Freedom by H. Edward Richardson - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...KAhVF1RQKHU8oDuwQ6AEIPTAF#v=onepage&q&f=false

THE ANTI-SLAVERY CAREER OF CASSIUS M. CLAY - http://www.jstor.org/stable/23374695?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

[willseeyalater]

It is possible that the Tsar purchased Argentine made knives or was gifted them in bulk and then had them inscribed to give away to strengthen connections to foreign dignitaries.

 

[kamagong]

Here is a page with some info on Cassius Clay's knives.

Who Owns Cassius M. Clay's Bowie Knives?

Note Clay's folding knife. It fits right in with the types we normally talk about. Mike Robuck has one very similar, a particularly nice example.

Henckels hunting knife

 

[hamsco]

Duels must have been very common back in the early 1800s

Here is the Oath of Office for all Constitutional positions in Kentucky. Note the part about not fighting a duel. You can't even be a second !! Our new Governor took this Oath last week.



Members of the General Assembly and all officers, before they enter upon the execution of the duties of their respective offices, and all members of the bar, before they enter upon the practice of their profession, shall take the following oath or affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of ——————— according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God."

 

[jdm61]

The story that we heard in Kentucky was that the crowd came after Mr. Clay when he was quite old and had married an 18 year old African-American girl. He allegedly used a cannon to dissuade his perturbed neighbors.

 

[BluegrassBrian]

Here's a few links in relation to Cassius Marcellus Clay. Plenty more info out there :thumbup:

Cassius Marcellus Clay (Wikipedia entry) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Marcellus_Clay_(politician)

A KENTUCKY GLADIATOR. General Cassius M. Clay Talks of His Duels and Fights - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cassius-marcellus-clay-kentucky.html

The Cassius Clay-Sam Brown Fight; An Eyewitness Account - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/cassius-clay-sam-brown-fight-eyewitness.html

Who Owns Cassius M. Clay's Bowie Knives? - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/who-owns-cassius-m-clays-bowie-knives.html

Cassius Marcellus Clay: Firebrand of Freedom by H. Edward Richardson - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...KAhVF1RQKHU8oDuwQ6AEIPTAF#v=onepage&q&f=false

THE ANTI-SLAVERY CAREER OF CASSIUS M. CLAY - http://www.jstor.org/stable/23374695?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

As a Kentuckian I find these articles fantastic.

Eastern KY University is in Richmond..been about 8 years since I visited there. I do enjoy taking road trips in the spring and summer..may have to add White Hall to my short list of destinations.

 

[Ernie1980]

Interesting story, and a gorgeous knife!

 

[Jack Black]

Who Owns Cassius M. Clay's Bowie Knives? - http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/who-owns-cassius-m-clays-bowie-knives.html

Here is a page with some info on Cassius Clay's knives.

Who Owns Cassius M. Clay's Bowie Knives?

Note Clay's folding knife. It fits right in with the types we normally talk about. Mike Robuck has one very similar, a particularly nice example.

Henckels hunting knife

There's some very interesting stuff on that site :thumbup:

Note however:

It is certainly plausible that the above knives belonged to Clay.

I admit I'm a little skeptical about the provenance of this knife, which is from Townsend's collection. How do we know Clay had anything to do with its design and construction? We only know because Townsend said so in his book. Clay never mentioned anything about this knife and as far as I know there is no other evidence supporting Townsend's claim. It is not unusual for people who own an unusual old artifact to try to boost its value by linking it to some famous figure.

I have found no other mention of knives believed to have belonged to Clay.

In relation to the folding knife, here's a piece about another character (there are two articles about him on that site), Colonel Jack Chinn: http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/knife-fighter-colonel-jack-chinn.html

 

[Jack Black]

Duels must have been very common back in the early 1800s.

They certainly were. I have a book on duelling, and it's a weighty tome! :thumbup:

The story that we heard in Kentucky was that the crowd came after Mr. Clay when he was quite old and had married an 18 year old African-American girl. He allegedly used a cannon to dissuade his perturbed neighbors.

Clay was attacked by multiple assailants on a number of occasions. There are full accounts on the site linked to. He had two small cannon on his desk apparently! His second marriage took place when he was 84.

As a Kentuckian I find these articles fantastic.

Eastern KY University is in Richmond..been about 8 years since I visited there. I do enjoy taking road trips in the spring and summer..may have to add White Hall to my short list of destinations.

Please feel free to resurrect this thread if you visit White Hall :thumbup:

 

[TsarBomba]

For a moment there, I thought Muhammad Ali was exhibiting his unknown knife collection. I'm feeling kinda stupid now. Carry on...

Absorbing topic. I confess I thought it might be about the greatest boxer ever to take to the ring in the c20th He might have had pocket-knives, who knows?

I too clicked on this topic to see what kind of pocketknife Muhammad Ali carries.

I got a bit excited when I read the title as well. I thought boxing and knives had crossed paths.

I think a good part of the reason this story is so neat is because it's not the famous boxer, but instead a notorious American ambassador and statesman. Clay the younger is still alive, albeit his gift of gab is sadly eroded by malady. Clay the elder is a virtual unknown to living generations, but pieces like the gaucho Jack has unearthed breathe life into the dusty old stories, make them worth reading and remembering. I for one am loving this thread. :thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

From the introduction to Cassius Marcellus Clay: Firebrand of Freedom by H. Edward Richardson

My first knowledge of Clay goes back to the 1930’s, to the Madison County in Richmond, where I heard the few remaining Civil War veterans and their many admirers of all ages talk about him. I remember them well. They hitched-up their splint-bottomed chairs in the shade of August Maples. Their Barlow knives delicately peeled cedar shavings that, like little wooden springs, danced to the ground. The older men could not negotiate such complicated whittling, but rested their hands on the crooks of hickory canes. When the talk turned to “Cash” Clay, the whittling stopped. Knives and canes became punctuation marks as the old men grew eloquent. I remember their faces all aglow behind saffron-tinctured beards, their eyes burning under bushy white brows – a sudden excitement in the hot air.

Definitely worth a read I think :thumbup:

 

[Primble]

In relation to the folding knife, here's a piece about another character (there are two articles about him on that site), Colonel Jack Chinn: http://bowieknifefightsfighters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/knife-fighter-colonel-jack-chinn.html

Now you are in my back yard Mr. Jack ! Colonel Chinn was from my county. I recall hearing stories about him when I was a young man. There is a really bad curve going down the steep winding hill on Lexington Road, near the Palisades, which was nick-named as Chinn's curve by the locals. I always believed it was because his property was near there, but, maybe because both were deadly.

 

[Jack Black]

Kentucky seems to have a fascinating history Primble, and to be a long-time home of knife aficionados :thumbup: