Knives that don't lock....

[Ryan Sumner]

to be honest, i dont like locking knifes (anymore) because i felt them always to be unsafe in the closed position (e.g. when carrying a modern linerlock on a clip tip up in your pocket i always feared to drive the blade into my finger tip when reaching for the knife) as they dont have (most liner locks) or have weak (most backlocks) springs to keep them closed when needed. and in closed position you have no control over the knife so this has higher priority (at least for me). i also consider a spring a force to deal with, with a lock you never know when it buckles (quits whatever is right here) so i even consider slippies saver when open than locking blades. to stab or punch only a fixed or balisong is safe. so for me a lock adds additional safety (eg the victorinox 111mm linerlocks do have a decent spring and the lock) but you should use the knife like a slipjoint. jm2c

Just the same as with my experience. I had a modern folder in my pocket, and it opened about 3/4 of an inch, (only just a bit, but it made me worried)
I do only have a limited experience with moderns, and liner locks, and have never used an ''expensive'' modern. My leatherman wave has liner locks, and has closed on me more times that slippies ever have. (Never had a slipjoint close on me, and the wave closed about 3 times)
I feel that this is due to the design of the liner of the leatherman in particular, which is quite thin. Keeping in mind, that I used it just as hard as I would any slipjoint.

I am almost the reverse of most people that feel a slipjoint is unsafe, and I automatically feel unsafe using a lock because IF they fail, they do so without warning, whereas a slip-joint will flex before closing.

I should try out a couple more locking knives, and try to get out of my comfort zone. I always encourage people to try slipjoints, so it would be hypocritical of me not to consider trying something I'm not used to.

 

[jackknife]

I think that it all comes down to marketing.

You have maybe two generations now of young men who grew up using only lock blade knives. Buck started the ball rolling in 1963, and through the 60's, 70's and part of the 80's you had Buck, and a ton of knock off Bucks take over the folding knife market. Growing up when I did, in an era where all men carried a small slip joints, I looked at the humungous Buck and wondered why?

Then you had the beginning of the tactical craze in the 80's and 90's and that was it. They were the in thing, and the old pocket knife fell by the roadside. By the early 2000's they were a pale memory to some. The new kids on the block wanted what the knife magazines were pushing. They didn't have knife magazines when I was kid, it would have been thought silly.

But, you had all these kids growing up, and never handling a slip joint. It's like most of the young people now don't know how to drive a stick shift car. The automatic transmission has become so ubiquitous, that the high school and college age kids now have never had to drive a stick. Just like they have never handled a slip joint. Heck, I go to the shooting range and I'm the only guy there with a revolver. All the young guys have their Glocks, HK's, SIG's, look at my guy as a museum piece. When I offered to let one shoot it, he took it and was looking it over for the safety. I had to explain to him that it was sort of like a Glock, just pull the trigger.

If someone is never exposed to something, then they won't know about. If that something is viewed as an old obsolete grandaddy antique, they will never use it. The modern locking knife has been painted as the do all-end all of knives. Too much has been made over of the strength of the blade lock, to where they have been marketed as being a folding fixed blade. Ridiculous advertising and hype has added to this, as well as the Hollywood 'cool' factor. Knives are not seen as just something a man carries anymore, but more of a talisman of some sort. And apparently the fathers and uncles of these young men are not bothering to teach them a lot of things they should.

In the end, it's all about perception. The now generation perceives the slip joint to be an old fashioned anachronism that is totally eclipsed by the lock blade, therefor no longer a viable choice for a cutting tool. Of course a cutting tool is not what they want. They've ben told by the knife magazines that they need a knife that can jack up a Brinks armored car, fend of Chinese paratroopers, or slay a monster. And a slip joint does not fare well in fantasy senerios. Not pretty, but if you don't sugar coat it, that's what it is. The current generation of knife users won't bother how to learn to use a slip joint because the manufactures push highly hyped up knives on the market that have very little to do with cutting a pice of rope or opening a package. The highly hyped lock blade is sold as the do all of knifedom, with reality not coming into it. You and I know that a slip joint is as safe as the person using it, just like a revolver is still a viable gun, and a stick shift car will still get you where you need to go. But people all want the latest and greatest, and the market will always try to slant it toward what sells. Even if it has to paint things with a biased brush. I've had young people look at my knife and tell me I shouldn't be using an old thing like that. It'll fold over and cut my finger off. He said it with a strait face because he really believed that.

What we have there is not just a shift in perception, but a cultural shift in what is popular.

 

[jackknife]

I am almost the reverse of most people that feel a slipjoint is unsafe, and I automatically feel unsafe using a lock because IF they fail, they do so without warning, whereas a slip-joint will flex before closing.

I have seen the aftermath of that twice, and it wasn't pretty.

 

[Lycosa]

Great thread.
Know the limitations of said knife and use it accordingly.
I rotate many different knife designs, all contentedly.

 

[B.F.U]

Let's be real careful with this one folks. There's room for all sorts of knife knuts.

I really like that you posted this statement. Often people who don't have the consensus view get trampled on a forum, it's good to see the tradition mods look out for that.

To the OP: You've pretty much laid out the view of the vast majority of regular posters here. I carry slip joints more than locking knives (never carry a non oho locking knife) and they've never been dangerous for me. I grew up with my dad giving me SAK classics and other slip joints, so it's become natural.

However, I do think that as long as you maintain the same reasonable mentality while using a well made locking knife, a locking mechanism makes a knife safer. No matter how long we knife knuts here in traditional have been using slip joints or how responsible and careful we are, we are all human and all humans make errors. If my hand happens to slip in a way that makes the spine of my knife hit something hard, then a good locking mechanism would have made that situation safer. No matter what.

 

[Jack Black]

Opinel is the only lock type I trust 100% Seen too many others fail but NEVER an Opinel.

I haven't carried a slippy in a long time, just my locking folders and a few fixed blades, from time to time. I did once use my Opinel to process a cardboard box , and didn't bother to close the locking ring. The thing folded up on me, and nearly sliced a finger to the bone.

I've seen a couple of people have accidents with Opinels, either because they forgot to turn the locking round or hadn't turned it as far round as they'd thought.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I'm relatively new to the forum, lurked for quite a while before joining. Seriously surprised that this topic would require a warning from a moderator. Really? Wow. Not sure whether to think that is over the top PC, or just that the forum is that genteel. Anyway...

I use knives almost constantly, as a restaurant owner it is a job requirement. The 8" and paring knife combination are all I really need, the chef is fixed of course. The paring knife is either a bird-beak or an Opinel. And I carry an Opinel as a gentlemans steak knife generally.

I went through the "tactical" locking stage, and love my Spyderco Sage dearly, but most of that style sucks in slicing, which is what I do the most of. Well, that and breaking down boxes. So the tactical stuff generally gets left at home. Blade geometry is too thick for slicing.

And tightening loose equipment screws is a fairly frequent job in a restaurant too, so a SAK or multitool is handy, I've used both there too, currently on a Vic kick.

A quick inventory of my pockets just now shows a Vic Floral knife, very well used, on box and letter duty. An engraved Vic Explorer Plus on general use duty, an Alox Mini-Champ (just got it yesterday) mainly as a worry stone, and a Leatherman Micra that lives on my key ring. I like the Floral knives so much I have two spares in case the supply dries up. Just re-profile to remove the single bevel and they are razors.

A few weeks ago, only the Micra was present. Instead it was probably an Opinel Garden Knife, a case Hawkbill Pruner on box detail, and a Mora Companion slipped in the hip pocket. I'm a knife-slut...

As far as safety, all are dangerous if mis-used, stubbing with a scalpel sharp chefs knife or missing while fast chopping veggies is a constant horror for a cook.

I love knives, and enjoy all types. Part of the pleasure is picking out my "perfect" daily companions. Fortunately, in my world, all are legal, acceptable, and appropriate.

 

[quattromori]

I do agree with Frank.
Safety is mainly in the use, not much in the way the knife is built...but perception wins.
And there's nothing wrong with that, nor with the fact that taste is taste.
To add more thoughts to the "perception" thing, I grew up with friction folders, and still perceive them as safer than slipjoints (at least those with a hard pull). But again, I learned to use a folder without any backspring tension, so my "bias" (or simply my point of view) is just different than most here.

Fausto

 

[Will Power]

Well, I like all sorts of Traditional knives and I include liner-locks and lock-backs in there too, sometimes if I need to poke at something a locking knife is more reassuring. Everything is unsafe if you disregard basic intelligence.

 

[mnblade]

I have some knives that lock and some that don't. Like 'em all!

I do know one thing: In the history of man, no knife has ever "closed up" on the user.

-- Mark

 

[black mamba]

Thanks, Will, when I finally got around to responding to this thread, you just said exactly what I was thinking. Poking or stabbing is about the only unsafe thing to do with a slipjoint, but that just doesn't come up very often in daily tasks. If I'm going into a bad area and really think I might need some last-line self defense, I will carry a tactical.

 

[jackknife]

I do agree with Frank.
Safety is mainly in the use, not much in the way the knife is built...but perception wins.
And there's nothing wrong with that, nor with the fact that taste is taste.
To add more thoughts to the "perception" thing, I grew up with friction folders, and still perceive them as safer than slipjoints (at least those with a hard pull). But again, I learned to use a folder without any backspring tension, so my "bias" (or simply my point of view) is just different than most here.

Fausto

Fausto, you will never know just how much I have learned from your islands friction folder. :thumb up:

After much use of both the Sardinian resolza and the Turkish knife, I could go the rest of my life with just friction folders. The spring is actually a set back once you get used to how the friction folder works. It's not only efficient, but in real world use, it is safer feeling than any slip joint with a back spring. I can't even remember right now just where I put the locking ring off my Opinel. I haven't missed it at all.

 

[pinnah]

The thing that fascinates me most about this thread is how similar the lines of argument are to what I've seen in discussions about safety gear on forums for climbing, skiing and cycling and within my own industry (deals with risk management).

There are 3 things I want to mention: risk-compensation theory, Pascal's wager and contextual norms.

Let me begin with a true story...

Several years ago, we had an early fall nor'easter storm hit while my brother-in-laws big sail boat was still in the water. No way to haul it out in time, so he found dock further up in a harbor and I went out with him to add extra lines to keep it from breaking loose. I was carrying a diminutive but still sturdy Schrade 5OT.

Shrade 5OT by Pinnah, on Flickr

My BiL handed me some sections of old garden hose and asked me to cut them to length to make shrouds for the lines to protect them from chafing off as they ran past parts or the boat or doc. The 5OT did just fine for both cutting the hose and splitting it lengthwise.

But then he wanted to secure the shrouds with zip ties which required that I make holes, or at least 'X' cuts in each end of the material. A simple, tip down type of slip joint puncture cut was not going to work as it didn't give enough control.

The wind was already up, we had only the tools we had with us on the boat and in our pockets and there wasn't really time to go find a punch or hand drill.

I held the 5OT by the spine with one hand so that it was clear of the blade well and with the heel of the other hand, gently tapped the butt end of the handle to cut the 'X' holes with control.

RISK COMPENSATION - Paul Petzoldt, founder of NOLS used to argue that if you carried a climbing helmet, you would be more likely to climb in the face of rock fall hazard. Climbing ropes, ice axes, crampons, avalanche courses and ski helmets all have this affect. It is called "risk compensation" and it's well documented. I would not have wanted to attempt this risky cut with a slip joint. The existence of the lock helped me make the decision to engage in riskier behavior.

PASCAL'S WAGER- Blaise Pascal argued that one might as well believe in God because a) the cost was cheap (he downplayed this part badly, imo) and b) the potential pay-off was huge. As this translates to risk management, if one is dead set on engaging in risky behavior, you might as well use the safety equipment because it might help. I was going to make that risky cut, no matter what type of knife I had on me at the time. The existence of the lock helped reduce the risk that I was going to take anyway.

CONTEXTUAL SOCIAL NORMS - In hindsight, and obviously, I would have much rather to have my Mora Companion on my hip for that day. A drilling style plunge cut is just safer with a fixed blade. So, why didn't I have my fixed blade with me? Social norms. I didn't have a fixed blade on me because it runs counter to social norms to carry a fixed blade. In fact, carrying a concealed fixed blade is illegal in some places. On the other hand, if I were to enter a rural general store in Vermont in a few weeks with hunting clothes on and a big fixed blade on my belt, nobody up there would say "boo" about it. Social norms are contextual.


IMO, the locking folder fits a certain niche. They're better than slip joints for work that, in an ideal world would be done by a fixed blade. But, in the less than ideal real world I live in, they allow me to do things I really couldn't or just wouldn't with a slip joint.


FWIW, for the poster who said they trust the Opinel lock, IME, the Opinel lock is the least strong of any design in terms of accidental closure. My suggestion is to never, ever rely on the Opinel lock to protect against closure. And I say that as one of the largest fans of the Opinel on this forum.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

How I think about it all......

Locking knives can add a little margin of safety and overconfidence. I’ve had a liner lock on a TL-29 break and cut me pretty deep when I was young and too lazy to go get the right tool. They can add some safety if you forget proper knife handling techniques. I don’t find much wrong with them, but I prefer a slipjoint. I still like the classics like the Buck 110 though.

If I need the extra safety or strength that many look for in a modern tactical folder, I kinda feel like maybe I should just use a fixed blade.

 

[Trapper92]

From what OP ask, is that his friends seem to see slip joint's as unsafe knives.
And I hope he can see that we don't have anything against locking knives, I think they do have their place and are here to stay.
But I hope he can see that slip joints are safe, if used proper and respected, or they would not have stuck around this long.
Any knife can be dangerous and can cut or hurt you if not used properly and respected.

I most definitely think that slip joints are safe, I carry one everyday. I also do totally agree that locking knives have their place and that's just fine by me. Like I said I have a couple lockbacks that I carry, I just couldn't wrap my head around people think slippys are unsafe. There have been some great responses here, I think a few people hit the nail on the head with the fact that if they never learned how to properly use one, they wouldn't know any better.

 

[oldrifleman]

I normally carry a slip joint (99% of the time), but occasionally carry a modern one as well. I just like nice knives! Right now I have my GEC Ivory Viper in my pocket as well as a rather nice modern folder from Alan Davis (Great maker here on the forums). Is one better than the other, probably not. Do I feel less safe with one of my slip joints, Never! Will one do something the other won't, not really, it really depends on the blade shape. Steven

 

[Jack Black]

Excellent post Pinnah (I always pay attention when I see you've posted), as insightful as it was entertaining :thumbup:

 

[Trapper92]

...I still like the classics like the Buck 110 though.

If I need the extra safety or strength that many look for in a modern tactical folder, I kinda feel like maybe I should just use a fixed blade.

Great post Woodrow. I love 110s, I've carried one alot and mine is a very cherished friend. As for the fixed blade statement, I feel much the same as you do, the fixed blade is my knife of choice in a really "hard use" situation. I don't really put my knives through very much torture though, as in the end they are just a cutting tool, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Chris Meyer]

I am one of those people who don't trust slip-joint knives. I believe it stems from almost cutting the top of my thumb off when I was a little kid. I was screwing around with a scout type knife that my father kept in the glove box of his car. I partially opened the blade, then tried to flip it open the rest of the way. The back of the blade hit the back of the front seat and closed on my thumb. The knife was very sharp and cut about a third of the way across my thumb, through nail and all. I still have the scar. Obviously, this was my fault, but I still cringe when I think about it.

I do like the look of traditional folders, and fortunately, GEC makes several lockbacks. I was recently able to pick up a couple of #42 Missouri Traders, one in Elk and one in Frontier Bone. So I can have my cake, and eat it too!

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Great post Woodrow. I love 110s, I've carried one alot and mine is a very cherished friend. As for the fixed blade statement, I feel much the same as you do, the fixed blade is my knife of choice in a really "hard use" situation. I don't really put my knives through very much torture though, as in the end they are just a cutting tool, nothing more, nothing less.

One use where it's easy to hurt yourself is processing large game. I can and have done it with a slip joint. A lockback might provide a little more safety. Still a fixed blade is safer and much much much easier to clean as you don't have joints to clean the meat out of.