Kukris and stab ability

[Cpl Punishment]

I'm not comparing the two.

I'm saying that one group of "experts" can, and has, come up with a different answer than another group. Look at what MOST SOCOM guys carry these days. It's not a dagger. It's also not the issue bayonets. They may carry then for use as a bayonet, but it's not their fighting knife of choice.

When it comes to Gurkhas, why did that group of "experts" choose the kukri? Well, bnecause they are experts with a kukri.

And trust me, If I can stab my kukri through plywood which is biased so as not to be easy to penetrate from any angle, a kukri will go right between ribs with no problem.

So once again I come back to my contention that a kukri is a great survival/woods/fighting knife because ti does all of those things well, not because it's the best.

Another design that is good at most of those things (but falls behind in the chopping category) is the Bowie knife. I mean a real one with 10+ inches of blade. In fact, I'd classify it as a better fighter than a dagger. The sharpened top edge means it's very thin up front and stabs well (one of the reasons it's often illegal to carry is because like a dagger or dirk, it can stab through soft body armor). But it has the advantage of a thick spine for when you are twisting it around cutting all those arteries and organs, unlike a dagger. The unsharpend spine also makes it superior to parry with. Yet it often is wide, having a narrow edge angle, so it's suitable for slashing light vegetation and has enough weight to be a moderately good chopper. Yet it gets pooh-poohed as a "Rambo" knife, despite its overall usefulness. So much for "expert opinion" in my book. YMMV

I chose the kukri and got rid of the Bowies because the kukri does as well as the bowie in the fighting and most utility uses, yet outchops the Bowie -- with the same length and weight -- badly.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Cpl, one thing for sure we can agree on---now I'm not one of those "hunker in the bunker, doomsday is coming" type folks. But if I were:

you can be sure I'd take a good khukuri over a F&S dagger in a "crap hits the fan" situation any day, and for the reasons you listed. It doe so many things well. No argument there! :thumbup:

Neither am I.

I pick the kukri for it's usefulness at the utilitarian tasks -- it's just a bonus that it can fight, too. I'm just arguing with the guys that like to posit that it can';t fight well.

 

[Kenniets]

Can't fight well?!?

They need to go read the news story I linked to above about the Ghurka and the 40 thieves. If 40 on 1 (okay, it was a train, so not all 40 came at once) isn't "well"....I dunno what is.:grumpy:

 

[Karda]

Daggers are more rare nowadays because of the cost: it is a dedicated combat weapon meant to kill humans (for the most part). It is also more expensive than regular knives due to the fact that daggers have to be very symmetrically grinded.

Actually daggers are more rare because of legalities, in most states here they are illegal for carry.

Meanwhile, a kukri is a working tool. It is meant to do heavy-duty stuff and do a lot of those things. While I have only have my own for comparison ( a fairly heavy CAK) we are talking about something that has a very different balance.
It can stab yes, I can confirm that. However, when compared to the FS it is more clumsy and inaccurate in that regard.

Possibly when compared to a F/S it is, but your statement would have to would be qualified by the experience of the user. There are some out there that can weild a large khukuri with all the dexterity of a surgeon with a scalpel.

A kukri is going to be more difficult to push between ribs, while the FS is thin and long enough to do that. This is simply because the kukri is not meant to do that: you need a thing blade to do that.
Or something that a special ops guy or something would need: silence a guard. A dagger can readily cut a throat. A kukri is more difficult to move like that.

No need to worry about pushing between ribs with a khukuri. A khukuri will punch right thru them. As far as slitting throats....I think many a ghurka would disagree with your statement. WWII proves this. Why settle for throat slitting when decapitation is just a matter of one extra stroke. IMHO, this make the khukuri a more practical choice.

In sum, we are looking at two different stlyes of weapon: one is large and more like a sword, while the other is meant for in-fighting. You cannot fairly compare one with the other.

The khukuri was a close combat weapon millenia before the F/S was even an idea in anyones head.

As for it being a choice of melee weapon for a Gurka: I don't think that they chose it out of a big selection but because it made more sense to stick what the soldiers know. Gurkhas, unless I am mistaken, come from Nepal where a kukri is an everyday item. They are already familiar with it. It is also a good working tool, something that has to be considered in the modern military.

They brought it with them because it was familiar, yes..... but also because it was their preferred blade for war, in usage for hundreds of years.

I chiefly see a kurki as a utilitarian knife rather than a combat one.

It is both. In times of peace it is a tool. In times of war it is weapon.

 

[Zixinus]

Actually daggers are more rare because of legalities, in most states here they are illegal for carry.

That is pretty USA centric of you, isn't it?

My guess is from looking at shops and various producers: relatively few make daggers and some don't even bother.

Possibly when compared to a F/S it is, but your statement would have to would be qualified by the experience of the user. There are some out there that can weild a large khukuri with all the dexterity of a surgeon with a scalpel.

How many? How well and much do they have to practice with a kukri to get anywhere near to that versus a dagger?

Why settle for throat slitting when decapitation is just a matter of one extra stroke.

Because slitting throat is severing soft tissue, the primary damage is that of blood getting into breathing channel. Decapitating is a messy affair, spilling blood all over the place, that may not work 100% of the time due to the fact of the spine. Also, a decapitating strike may be blocked by a rifle or other obstruction.

That, and guess which one is easier to carry: a kukri with it's size or a lightweight dagger?

The khukuri was a close combat weapon millenia before the F/S was even an idea in anyones head.

Not the F/S specifically, but daggers in general have seen a very wide use in a large variety of situations. In fact, daggers are more widespread: they can be found not only in Europe but in Eastern world, the Middle-East and even beyond.

 

[Karda]

That is pretty USA centric of you, isn't it?

My guess is from looking at shops and various producers: relatively few make daggers and some don't even bother.

Not really Usa centric of me, considering that you cannot legally carry them in alot of places in the world.

How many? How well and much do they have to practice with a kukri to get anywhere near to that versus a dagger?

That would depend on the users ability to learn and put to use what is learned. I would surmise that the learning curve is much the same.

Because slitting throat is severing soft tissue, the primary damage is that of blood getting into breathing channel. Decapitating is a messy affair, spilling blood all over the place, that may not work 100% of the time due to the fact of the spine. Also, a decapitating strike may be blocked by a rifle or other obstruction.

Spine, especially in the neck area poses no real obstruction to a khukuri. The F/S on the other hand would be stopped dead by it. If a strike is obstructed for a khukuri it will be quite moreso for the F/S.

That, and guess which one is easier to carry: a kukri with it's size or a lightweight dagger?

Maybe so, but which one will perform more duties? Which one is the more practical for a soldier/person to carry. My money is on the khukuri.

Not the F/S specifically, but daggers in general have seen a very wide use in a large variety of situations. In fact, daggers are more widespread: they can be found not only in Europe but in Eastern world, the Middle-East and even beyond.

They both trace their roots back to roughly the same Area and Era.

 

[Kenniets]

Oh no...I feel this discussion might rapidly degrade into armchair ninja wars. :foot: Daggers are nifty, but can we keep it about the khuks?

Zixinus, I think Karda responded quite well to your "ribs" contention. You don't need to slip between them when you're cutting through them. It's not hard to do with most any sharp knife.

Yes, daggers conceal better. That was one of the gists of my first post. You might be able to take them some places you can't a khuk. But more important is this: daggers don't kill people, khukuris don't kill people. People kill people, and bottom line is both of those tools will get the job done.

I've actually been encouraged by this thread with regards to the stabby ability of khukuris. Interesting bit about the plywood. Personally I can't wait to get a khuk so I can try it out on the local hog population. An above post by Cpl Punishment has enlightened me that it can be done...previously they were just plinking for my M1 rifle! I'll write back if it ends up being a "messy affair, spilling blood all over the place," but most hunting ends up that way anyway, fwiw.

 

[Steve Tall]

An anecdote to add to the data

I know a farmer who uses an HI khukuri to slit the necks of pigs that he is butchering.
He marvels how much better suited the khukuri is for this task than a straight knife.
(He is slicing, not chopping.)

 

[snow and steel]

So to put this slightly back to where I was headed;

For a utility tool - is the stabbing edge really worth keeping, or are we better suited with something else? it is really a crime to lose the stab abilty for a working tool if it ca be replaced with another tool?

 

[JOE68]

I think you ought to keep the point because it gives you the ability to dig deep into whatever object you wish to "stab" into.
If a pry bar had a pointy tip it would be easier to get it under things.
The tip also gives you the smallest piercing part on a khukuri in case you wish to poke a hole in something.
Pointed knives have some advantages that round point ones don't. Ever tried poking a small hole in something with a round point?
As for the great debate on it's use as a weapon I think that a khukuri can/does make a very good stabbing weapon.If I'm going to take out a sentry I would just cleave his head into two halves and forget the stabbing aspect. If noise isn't a problem then you can always shatter and go through the collar bone to the sub clavian artery----- messy but effective.
A chop to the back of the neck moving towards the front will make the brain "stop".
As far as a stab goes, on its way back out the recurve blade is going to leave a gaping hole. Stab and pull down, stab and pull across either way it is going to leave a hole that will require a sewing machine to sew back up.
A hammer makes a great tool and a passble weapon.
A khukuri is considered by many to be a tool.
Ergo the khukuri makes a passable weapon, but maybe not so good at pounding nails.
Keep the point it serves a purpose.

 

[snow and steel]

hmm... well darn... now I'm begining to think I'm trying to reinvent the wheel and perhaps my theoretical design was something akin to a great solution to a problem no one had... back to the drawing board?

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I think it's worth keeping the point. Not only can you be more precise with some cuts and such, but it makes it easy to make a bow drill set. You set the point in the wood, push down on the pommel with one hand, and grab the kukri right at the shoulder area, and work it around like a sort of brace drill.

Kenniets: killing hogs with a blade is very messy. There's a reason the phrase "bleeding like a stuck pig" exists.

 

[Uralista]

Re. Fairbairn and the F-S Commando knife.
This was more of a sentry take-out weapon/last-ditch, STENgun-jammed-or out-of-ammo item.
Check out his later design (and issued) SMATCHET.
It is kukhris-size and looks to be a bastard-child of the old Welsh shortsword (as issued to WW1 Welsh machine-gunners) and the Kukhuris.
There is NO WAY either the Smatchet or the Welsh shortsword would cut brush, chop into a tree and "throw a chip" like a heavy hatchet or light axe like the kukhuris will do.
The 17.5" Gelbu Spl. I have just received makes my Martindale GOLOK seem a pretty sorry runner-up, despite it's edge being carefully re-worked per SAS advice.
The point seems to land about an inch low to marks on the bark of alder trees I am thinning to let more sunlight in if held with the blade in the vertical plane.
If I thrust and let my hand/arm turn so the blade is in the horizontal plane, it is "right on the mark" very often.

Great "tool" and WAY better than the pit-run of expediant "tool-weapons" in dire need.
I cannot think of any edged weapons I would rather have in my hand in "need" if I could not get to a firearm...Not Bowie knife, not cutlass, not saber. (I have owned many patterns of each...)

Davo

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I have always found a good sharp edge and chopping ability to be more useful than a pointy edge when it comes to survival. I have very little use for an acute point. Furthermore, the need for stabbing has never been an issue. I used my khuk to tie off my buddy's canoe once. Instead of stabbing it into a log on the bank, I just sank it deeply with a full chop.

Martially, I'm ignorant on most things. Being more familiar with a khuk, I would pick that over a dagger any day. To each his own. The Irish used cudgels to ladle their rival factions. Would a war hammer have been more effective? Perhaps, perhaps not. To them, their oak clubs had been warn smooth over generations and worked just fine for their needs.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

They worked so well, the english outlawed carry of the Shillelagh. In fact, I think even to this day a full sized (walking can length) Shillelagh is illegal there.

 

[spiraltwista]

A few points from my perspective.

1, Id rather face an adversary with a dagger than a kukri any day, whether they be trained or not. Ive survived 2 separate knife attacks in my youth { nearly 30 years ago.} I reckon in the same situations a kukri have done me.

2, many kukris are utilitarian, some do both, some are just made as weapons.

3,Some kukri will stab very well, some kukri wont . Depends on design, sharpness etc.

4, play with a few of them before deciding whats best.

5,needle pointed & razor sharp helps penetration.

6,Read the above 5 points again.

Spiral

 

[conwict]

I think my 12" chiruwa ang khola is about perfect for my needs for a survival knife, which would include skinning, CQC in a pinch, and primarily shelter or small fire building, perhaps off label uses like pry bar or breaching tool.

My 19" chitlangi is the best stabby kukri I've ever seen. The tip is much narrower (not thinner) than most HI kukris I've seen, with more of what resembles a traditional drop point if you view the last 3.5" or so of the kukri.

My technique for CQC stabbing would more resemble the usage of a bayonet...I am right handed and I would thrust from the hip driving with the right hand and generating force from the hip. The kukri would be edge down saber grip (well, hammer grip I guess, thumb stays locked). The left hand would intersect with the spine about halfway through the stab to guide it and prevent deflection. I learned this method from some reading about Gurkhas and it sure does work...you can follow through on the thrust much better using this method, which as I said is a bit like bayonet thrusting, than simply stabbing with one hand. Another thing is your left hand crossing over to make contact with the spine of the kukri will protect your torso from blows to some extent, can be used to "check" an opponents attempt to intercept the blade, even trap a wandering hand or move it out of the way of the thrust. This is similar to FMA type movement, where you see people crossing their off hand over when thrusting.

To reiterate the three keys to this are hip drive, low starting position*, and a guiding from the left hand.

*The other interesting thing is that you can actually keep it as a low line thrust, or you can simultaneously lunge/duck and thrust upward, or you can twist the blade in a partial parrying type motion and go for a crossways stab. This move is hard to predict for your opponent and you can be deceptively quick, not to mention change direction mid-stab, a hard feat with a small knife let alone a big knife...very brutal and effective.

 

[Spectre]

Is the Kukri really a stabbing blade

Of course it isn't. The kukuri is a chopper. Use it for what it is. It can stab, but that's a more dangerous proposition because of the lack of a guard.

John

 

[Cpl Punishment]

That's the reason behind the ring that most models have in the handle.

I'd like to ask the guys who think that a kukri can't stab if they've tried it.

 

[DannyinJapan]

R
Check out his later design (and issued) SMATCHET.
It is kukhris-size and looks to be a bastard-child of the old Welsh shortsword (as issued to WW1 Welsh machine-gunners) and the Kukhuris.
There is NO WAY either the Smatchet or the Welsh shortsword would cut brush, chop into a tree and "throw a chip" like a heavy hatchet or light axe like the kukhuris will do.
Davo

I own one of these DeWalden swords and I can honestly tell you: I will NEVER find out if it can chop wood cause I aint gonna try it!