Lambsfoot and the spear, American and English taste?

[Jack Black]

Habit. It's a very strong force. It then becomes 'custom' lore etc.

Perhaps the simple truth is, the Lamfoot was considered too basic for export, lowly not enticing or exciting enough so nobody bothered to offer it outside Britain?

Sometimes the truth is so simple and obvious we can overlook it

I wonder, is a straight edge better for sharpening a quill??

Perhaps. It'd certainly be no worse.

 

[burnside]

Great thread, and very interesting insights as to how and why the lambfoot folder came to be.

 

[Jack Black]

I hope Charlie won't mind me quoting a post he made in my Silent Lambsfoot thread:

The name "Textile" pattern is interesting. It is the middle knife at the bottom of the first catalog page. Makes me think of someone working in a cotton mill. A "Loomfixer" had a wide sheepfoot blade also.
I believe it is more efficient to cut fibers with a straight edge, because a straight edge "gathers" the thread, instead of letting it side off a curved type blade only partially cut.
If you are working quickly, a Sheepfoot gives you more of a visual index of where it is. A Wharcliffe, with its long tapering point can get into trouble, cutting too far, or cutting too many threads.
But, is it true there are more Wharncliffes in use than Sheepfoot blades in America?
It is certainly true that Americans prefer ANYTHING over a Lambsfoot (LF)!
The only LFs you see in America, or indeed Canada are incidental strays from the UK!!

I hadn't thought about the textile trade, which abounded in much of the north of England at one time. Another interesting point to ponder

 

[scruffuk]

Shocking Jack. Indeed how could we forget our textile history which is all around on all around us, especially here in West Yorkshire, in Huddersfield....




....and Leeds....



As you know I favoure a straight edge myself (Weber Messer or Tidioute #53) for use at work, where I need the accuracy, and as Charlie says, the visual index, is very important here, as acuracy of cuts can be the difference between fuse continuity and going *BANG*.

 

[JB in SC]

I was in the textile business for 34 years. The sheepsfoot pattern was still used by old time loom fixers when I first started in the business. The pattern was handy for trimming up the leather lined plates on each end of the loom that "caught" the shuttle. There was still quite a bit of wood used for shuttle fly loom parts, trimming them up to fit was common. A knife with a sharp point wasn't needed.

As technology improved, most of the shuttle fly looms were replaced by rapier or air jet looms.

We seldom used knives to cut off any yarn from filling bobbins or warps.

 

[black mamba]

I gotta have slender and pointy! If a single blade, then a muskrat/California clip or a Wharncliffe. The lambsfoot or sheepfoot is a perfect compliment to a slender clip, or the spear or pen are perfect compliments to the Wharncliffe. In either case you get one slender and one broad, one with a belly and one with a straight edge. Variety for differing tasks is the key, for me.

 

[Parke1]

A typical English knife

I love that pattern! Are these easily found in the UK currently?

-Dan

 

[jackknife]

Many thanks for the thread Carl :thumbup: That Lambcliffe is pretty close isn't it P?

There are of course many ways in which our nations differ culturally, but one difference is in respect of hunting, and particularly the hunting of large game. Historically, what little large game we have here, belonged to the King and his cohorts, (even now that hasn't changed much), and a man would be executed for killing a deer for example. The North of England suffered enforced deforestation under William 1, the Norman conqueror, which must have further reduced the numbers of large game. Much later, industrialization spread rapidly, along with urbanisation, most of this country's population live in town's and cities, cut off from the woods and moors. Even today, hunting is a minority pursuit here, and mostly the preserve of the gentry.

While Sheepsfoot and Lambsfoot knives are traditionally farmer's knives, even the farmer would have made relatively little use of a hunting knife - of a knife with some belly. The Lambsfoot was a pattern carried by men in the towns and cities, who would rarely even come into contact with a rabbit, let alone a stag.

In the US, of course, things are very different, there's an amazing assortment of wildlife, and hunting for the pot, (unlike for sport, among the toffs here), was how many people fed themselves. While there are of course many huge cities, the country is nothing like as densely populated as the UK, and hunting is a mainstream blue-collar activity, unlike here. So people would have need of different sorts of blades, spears and clip-points, which would be more practical for dealing with a kill.

This is a tentative hypothesis I just thought up! Of course it still doesn't explain a lot of things, such as why the Wharncliffe and Sheepsfoot are seen in the US, but not the Lambsfoot, or why the pattern never took hold in San Francisco or New York, like it did in London or Sheffield, but to a large extent, irrespective of other factors, people carry what they're used to, and what their dad and grandad did.

Just a few thoughts anyway

Jack

Good hypothesis, Jack.

I guess the respective age of our two countries has a lot to do with culture. What you said about the early industrialization and land clearing. I hadn't give that a lot of thought, but that could make a huge difference. I remember when I was in England, and I walked into an old stone church just sight seeing around. There were tombstones and effigies with dates going back before the first settlements were founded in Jamestown in 1607, and Plymouth in 1620. American was still a howling wilderness when England was a settled semi peaceful country side with laws and strict governing. While a English peasant could be hung for killing a kings's deer, Captain John Smith had to contend with a new raw continent where large animals were anxious to see if we tasted like chicken. Heck, there's still parts of the U.S. where tourists and campers manage to be attacked by bears.

Habit from long centuries of doing things the same way can make for strong habits, and as Will said, habits can be hard to break. Cultural habits very hard. Like America having a hamburger stand practically on every corner, but no fish and chips places at all. Coffee places all around, but no place to get a good cup of tea to save your life. Pointy knives vs squared off knives. I can see how an island nation, whose very existence depends on her navy, would have a very powerful influence from maritime cutlery. I could see how some sailor coming home would just keep using the same knife that he got while serving in the British navy. And if his son inherited that knife, or got one "just like dad's" a trend could born. From what I understand, even the British Army issued a navy type of clasp knife in WW2, while the American military was handing out scout knives in one form or another. Yet when you get right down to it, both served well for their respective soldiers.

Fascinating to speculate on, but I'm hungry and have to search out a fish and chips place in this land of hamburgers and pizza. A nice smooth porter to go with it would be nice.

Carl.

 

[Jack Black]

Shocking Jack. Indeed how could we forget our textile history which is all around on all around us, especially here in West Yorkshire, in Huddersfield....




....and Leeds....



As you know I favoure a straight edge myself (Weber Messer or Tidioute #53) for use at work, where I need the accuracy, and as Charlie says, the visual index, is very important here, as acuracy of cuts can be the difference between fuse continuity and going *BANG*.

Indeed sir, better to be hung for a sheep as for a lamb!

I was in the textile business for 34 years. The sheepsfoot pattern was still used by old time loom fixers when I first started in the business. The pattern was handy for trimming up the leather lined plates on each end of the loom that "caught" the shuttle. There was still quite a bit of wood used for shuttle fly loom parts, trimming them up to fit was common. A knife with a sharp point wasn't needed.

As technology improved, most of the shuttle fly looms were replaced by rapier or air jet looms.

We seldom used knives to cut off any yarn from filling bobbins or warps.

Absolutely fascinating. I love the wealth of experience to be found here

I love that pattern! Are these easily found in the UK currently?

-Dan

Not too hard to find Dan. Or you can get a lambsfoot with a pen. Try searching on 'Sheffield knives' and I'm sure you'll find something of interest

Good hypothesis, Jack.

I guess the respective age of our two countries has a lot to do with culture. What you said about the early industrialization and land clearing. I hadn't give that a lot of thought, but that could make a huge difference. I remember when I was in England, and I walked into an old stone church just sight seeing around. There were tombstones and effigies with dates going back before the first settlements were founded in Jamestown in 1607, and Plymouth in 1620. American was still a howling wilderness when England was a settled semi peaceful country side with laws and strict governing. While a English peasant could be hung for killing a kings's deer, Captain John Smith had to contend with a new raw continent where large animals were anxious to see if we tasted like chicken. Heck, there's still parts of the U.S. where tourists and campers manage to be attacked by bears.

Habit from long centuries of doing things the same way can make for strong habits, and as Will said, habits can be hard to break. Cultural habits very hard. Like America having a hamburger stand practically on every corner, but no fish and chips places at all. Coffee places all around, but no place to get a good cup of tea to save your life. Pointy knives vs squared off knives. I can see how an island nation, whose very existence depends on her navy, would have a very powerful influence from maritime cutlery. I could see how some sailor coming home would just keep using the same knife that he got while serving in the British navy. And if his son inherited that knife, or got one "just like dad's" a trend could born. From what I understand, even the British Army issued a navy type of clasp knife in WW2, while the American military was handing out scout knives in one form or another. Yet when you get right down to it, both served well for their respective soldiers.

Fascinating to speculate on, but I'm hungry and have to search out a fish and chips place in this land of hamburgers and pizza. A nice smooth porter to go with it would be nice.

Carl.

Thanks Carl, just a few thoughts while I was eating my toast this morning. Was a pleasant surprise to log on and see your thread

Yes, the British Army clasp knife, adopted in 1939, has a sheepsfoot blade, much like the British navy knife. The pattern is still made in Sheffield. Interesting that they adopted the Sheepsfoot (I do have an army pattern with a spearpoint), and I wonder if it was because the 'Brass' thought it the best design for the job, because they knew British soldiers would be familiar with it, or some other reason.

An interesting point of discussion for sure

Jack

 

[NoNameNomad]

This thread has made up my mind for me. I'm going in the next few days to go back to the surplus store and pick up that Otter Messer sheepsfoot anchor knife I was looking at a few months ago. It was a bear trap to open and close from what looks to be rust and gunk inside, but hopefully some WD40 will be enough to make it smooth and hopefully the spring will be undamaged from what must be some serious rust/gunk. But for $30 it's worth it. Might not be a lambsfoot but close enough!

 

[waynorth]

I was in the textile business for 34 years. The sheepsfoot pattern was still used by old time loom fixers when I first started in the business. The pattern was handy for trimming up the leather lined plates on each end of the loom that "caught" the shuttle. There was still quite a bit of wood used for shuttle fly loom parts, trimming them up to fit was common. A knife with a sharp point wasn't needed.

As technology improved, most of the shuttle fly looms were replaced by rapier or air jet looms.

We seldom used knives to cut off any yarn from filling bobbins or warps.

Thanks for helping clarify my fuzzy knowledge of the subject, JB. I've never seen a "live" loom in my life!!

 

[jackknife]

Good morning Jack!

I can see why the British army would just issue out the knife they already probably had for the navy. It's a strong design, and the sheepsfoot would a near impossible blade to break off a tip. For the regular soldier who is not processing any game, a strait sheepsfoot blade is the best of all possible worlds. Sturdy, rugged, near impossible to break, easy to sharpen. And if you need a sharp point there really is one if you angle the blade the right way. And like you say, generations of English men are already familiar with the blade shape in one form or another. Lambsfoot, sheepsfoot, wharncliffe, all cousins of the same family.

I do admit that for all the 25 years I carried that Buck 301 stockman, the sheepsfoot was my go-to choice when some rough cutting came up. With the almost full thickness of the blade spine almost to the point, I wasn't worried about leaning on it if I had to. But the clip was my fish and small game blade.

I know that the culture here in America is changing. When I was a kid, we were only one generation away from people who had first hand memories of the old days, the tales of the wild west. America still has that mentality, nd is a very young country when compared to our European cousins. While England was into the industrial revelation with the forests cut down and urbanization growing, we still had people trapping in the mountains and skinning buffalo on the plains. Native Americans were going on the warpath, and bushwackers and dry gulchers would kill you for what you had on you. From what I understand, even the old highwayman on the coach roads was a polite fellow, sometimes. But times change, and now we have a great many people here who do not even bother to carry any kind of pocket knife, and looks somewhat sideways at we who do. Yet when I was a kid, if a man did not have a pocket knife of some sort, it was HE who was looked at sideways. Times change, and with it, the culture. In that, our two countries seem alike. The big factories of Camillus and Schrade are gone, and Sheffield is a pale shadow in history books.

I hate to think that a generation or two from now, no young person in England will know what a lambsfoot is, and no young person in America will know what a Barlow is.

Ahhh, it's noon somewhere, I'm going to make myself a toddy!

Carl.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Fascinating to speculate on, but I'm hungry and have to search out a fish and chips place in this land of hamburgers and pizza. A nice smooth porter to go with it would be nice.

Carl.

When you find a good fish and chips joint, let me know .

Carl, I like your theory, but when did the British military finally go into Scotland and round up all of the clans? I don't recall the exact dates, but I thought it was generally in the 1600's. Britain still had some rough and tumble left in her .

 

[JB in SC]

Thanks for helping clarify my fuzzy knowledge of the subject, JB. I've never seen a "live" loom in my life!!

I was a department level weaving manager for many years, everything from cotton sheets to aerospace materials.

Here's a video of a Draper loom, I had 1125 of them operating at a plant in 1974. They were common until the late 1970's early 1980's. In the late 19th century they were operated by belts on driveshafts in the ceiling, usually driven by steam or even water power. Many old mills were located on rivers for that reason.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-1qQcsFSo&desktop_uri=/watch?v=MB-1qQcsFSo

 

[jackknife]

When you find a good fish and chips joint, let me know .

Carl, I like your theory, but when did the British military finally go into Scotland and round up all of the clans? I don't recall the exact dates, but I thought it was generally in the 1600's. Britain still had some rough and tumble left in her .

Actually, 1746 was the last battle of the highland clans, at the Colloden Moor. Imediatly afterward was what the English army called the "Pacification Of the highlands." to stamp out the rebels once and for all. The wearing ot the tartan was banned, as was the playing bagpipes. But...they could enlist in the English army's Scottish regiments and wear the tartan and play the pipes.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Thanks!

 

[Jack Black]

I'm not sure the Lambsfoot and Sheepsfoot patterns go back THAT far!

The sun's over the yardarm here though Carl (it's 5.45pm), so cheers my friend

Jack

 

[BJE]

This thread is making me want a lambsfoot, lol.

 

[cilohaefink]

I had always heard the Case 6217 referred to as the "Loom Fixer". I never knew why until JB in SC who has posted in this thread provided me with the answer.

Just by coincidence, I saw this old KA-BAR curved sheepfoot jack photo on another forum.

I have seen this pattern made by many manufacturers with NEW ENGLAND WHALER imprinted on the handle or etched on the main blade. In fact the page that Jack posted shows a KEEN KUTTER single blade (most other brand seem to be two blade versions).

However, this is the first time I have ever seen one of any brand with the LOOM FIXER imprint.

 

[Jack Black]

I'm not sure the Lambsfoot and Sheepsfoot patterns go back THAT far!

I was wrong about the Sheepsfoot! Here's two from the Iron Age!





Also, contrary to what I pondered in this thread from a few years ago, I now wonder if the Lambsfoot developed from the blade shape below (called a 'Short Beak' among other things), rather than from the Sheepsfoot.