Lance Armstrong/WTH???

he has taken 500+ tests in his career and passed them all, no physical evidence. "Eyewitness testimony" is routinely debunked. If you cant prove anything why continue to press the issue.
 
Very good question.^
This Armstrong thing was just another bummer. First Paterno goes down and then this. We need heros.
 
Rival1314 said:
he has taken 500+ tests in his career and passed them all, no physical evidence. "Eyewitness testimony" is routinely debunked. If you cant prove anything why continue to press the issue.
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Which is the basis for Lance's contention. He has always claimed that he has passed every test given to him. He has never claimed, by his own words, that he is innocent, or that he did not take PEDs during his career. -If he has, please provide a link.

As I wrote above, the hard part of taking PEDs is not where to buy them, but in getting the best medical assistance in masking the evidence. His own doctor during his times on the US/USPS racing team has admitted to administering drugs to Lance and others. Testing for PEDs is a "catch-up" science as the rush is always to find ways to detect the latest versions of PEDs.
 
Rival1314 said:
he has taken 500+ tests in his career and passed them all, no physical evidence. "Eyewitness testimony" is routinely debunked. If you cant prove anything why continue to press the issue.
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Exactly, the guy says enough is enough after 17 years and over 500+ test with no positives and people are automatically thinking he is guilty. Like he said in his statement, he has better things to do with his time and energy, like raising over $500,000,000 for cancer.

his statement. HERE

CWL said:
He has always claimed that he has passed every test given to him. He has never claimed, by his own words, that he is innocent, or that he did not take PEDs during his career.
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I think passing 500+ test is better proof than how he worded his statements.
 
CWL said:
Which is the basis for Lance's contention. He has always claimed that he has passed every test given to him. He has never claimed, by his own words, that he is innocent, or that he did not take PEDs during his career. -If he has, please provide a link.
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from his wiki page:
Lance Armstrong wiki said:
Armstrong immediately replied on his website, saying, "Unfortunately, the witch hunt continues and tomorrow's article is nothing short of tabloid journalism. The paper even admits in its own article that the science in question here is faulty and that I have no way to defend myself. They state: 'There will therefore be no counter-exam nor regulatory prosecutions, in a strict sense, since defendant's rights cannot be respected.' I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance enhancing drugs."[98] ^ Litke, Jim (August 24, 2005). "Litke: Suspicion Remains Lance’s Opponent". VeloNews. Retrieved July 23, 2012.
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Of course he juiced up at some point but they need to give this hunt up. They are doing far more bad by trying to prove that he did then just letting it be. What is the worst that can come out of leaving the man alone and moving on, vs ruining his life and alot of the good he has done.

Most in professional sports ranging from pro ping pong to NASCAR juice these days. It is very common on many different levels and far more then most of the public realizes. I have quite a bit of knowledge on PEDs and the world of steroids as a whole and no one can ever test 100% for PEDs. As CWL said, the testing is always playing catch-up. New PEDs come out well before a test does and there are many different types of PED's that some simply cant be tested for.

They need to get off the whole banning PED's from all sports and let them all juice. Plain and simple sports is for entertainment and as long as there are sports there will be PEDs and people doing the most they can, to be the best they can be at their given sport. Who wouldn't, if there was millions of $$ at stake and it is how you provide for your family. Decades ago, people used to say if you worked out and exercised with weights it was cheating. Then it moved onto you were cheating if you took vitamins and different forms of nutritional supplements. Now it has just evolved to where we are pushing the human body even more, for good and bad. So, I say let them all juice to the moon and provide us the best entertainment possible. Anyways, PEDs are not only there to help people perform better but also make their bodies rebuild and repair faster, so if we have a sports team and a key player gets injured, it is in everyone's best interests (who is involved with that sports franchise and has $$ tied into it) to get them healed up and back to playing fast as possible PEDs help with that.

It is just going to keep getting worse and worse as time goes on. There really is no stopping it since we invest so much money into our different professional sports. Why go on these crazy hunts over and over again.

And don't even get me started on when the government starts to get involved, ie Bary Bonds, Roger Clemans, etc
 
The career of the greatest cyclist erased by a single, small minded, petty man. Armstrong never failed a drug test. This case wouldn't make it past a preliminary hearing in a local Magistrate Court in the smallest town in America.
This is a sad day for due process in this country. No trial, no evidence, just one guy with a bone to pick with Armstrong.
 
Aerian17 said:
And don't even get me started on when the government starts to get involved, ie Bary Bonds, Roger Clemans, etc
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wiki said:
U.S. federal prosecutors pursued allegations of doping by Armstrong from 2010–2012. The effort convened a grand jury to investigate doping charges, including taking statements under oath from Armstrong's former team members and other associates; met with officials from France, Belgium, Spain, and Italy; and requested samples from the French anti-doping agency. The investigation was led by federal agent Jeff Novitzky, who also investigated suspicions of steroid use by baseball players Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. The probe was terminated on February 3, 2012 with no charges filed.[65] ^ "Prosecutors close Armstrong inquiry, no charges". Retrieved February 3, 2012.
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agreed on that point
 
Lance has probably spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years defending himself. Now the USADA seems to be telling these other cyclists that unless they testify against Lance they are gonna bring the hammer down hard on them...it seem like they have no choice but to tell them what they want to hear. IMHO it seems like that guy at the USADA wants to make a name for himself by bringing down Lance at any cost. It seems like a huge waste of our taxpayer dollars to me.....he's retired...why spend our money to ban him for life? It makes no sense. I'd throw in the towel too and not spend any more money. The ones who think he doped will likely never change their opinion regardless of what the USADA says. Just my opinion.
 
It is not possible tp "prove" a negative. So the passed tests are all there is for evidence. As for dirty sports, the saints bounty to maim other player is much worse. Until more is revealed I will continue to distrust the AaDA and its civil liberty attacks. Very unAmerican way to assasinate a persons charactor.
 
c.m. arrington said:
The career of the greatest cyclist erased by a single, small minded, petty man. Armstrong never failed a drug test. This case wouldn't make it past a preliminary hearing in a local Magistrate Court in the smallest town in America.
This is a sad day for due process in this country. No trial, no evidence, just one guy with a bone to pick with Armstrong.
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In fact, it would make it past the preliminary phase, and would likely go to trial in just about any court. Many cases are based on nothing but allegations from eye witnesses. Often, felony cases, many counts, with nothing more than the word of a person already proven to be a liar!

I have seen it with life destroying charges, where the victim, and only witness was literally proven to be a liar at every turn (necessitating dismissing the counts where they proved, definitively that the crime did not and could not have occured). Same victim and defendant, the prosecutor went to trial with the remaining 8 or so charges (that could not be proven as out right lies). After a jury trial, an acquittal on all the remaining charges, because the "victim" was caught lying again and again (and had been caught stealing, and using CC info from the defendant, thousands of dollars of theft).





As to the OP.

I have always felt that Armstrong was not a great guy (for personal reasons, including the way he treated his Ex wife, and cheated on her).

As has been said, in a full career of tests, Armstrong has never had a positive test. Literally multiple hundreds of test.

He has never been caught with items for doping. No physical evidence.

Now you have eye witnesses testifying that he doped years later. The amount of pressure and other alternative reason that may be at play here cannot be overstated.



Looking at it from the standpoint of Armstrong, there really is NO way to win here for him. It will be a long, drawn out, embarrassing, venomous, spiteful process.


Even if innocent, the cost of defending against these charges could literally reduce him to a penniless pauper, with very little chance of success.

















Did he dope? I sure don't know. I think he probably did. Do I think doping has a place in sports? Nope.




Do I think that this should be pursued against Armstrong, now, after all these years? Not at all.
 
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USADA is trying to grab some publicity by knocking off the biggest target they think they can. They are far over reaching their authority. They don't have any authority to strip him of wins he won before they were in existence and in a foreign country and overseen by and international body for cycling.
I belive that he wasn't doping then, the French did everything they could to "catch" or discredit him. The couldn't. They didn't.
 
FWIW, I hear that personally he is a total A-hole from at least a couple of sources. I do not have ANY first hand knowledge of this, but it's what I've heard directly from people I know and trust that did have first hand experiences with him. One friend was an editor for a major Texas periodical that had to go through a photo session w/ him for the cover of their magazine. He was very much a prima donna. The second story involves an impromptu swimming competition in Austin against a very young, but talented swimmer. When he started to lose he had a major meltdown and was incredibly ungracious and a jerk to the kid who was beating him. He's also a little notorious in the area around Dripping Springs, Texas for causing a beautiful swimming hole to get fouled w/ construction runoff.

Me personally, I don't care if he's a jerk b/c I think he's done some very good things since getting off the bike. Like a lot of extremely successful people, he's complicated.

My father lives in Dripping Springs (very close to where Lance had a house until receently) and I saw him riding his bike on one of the back roads. He gave me a withering, intense look - probably b/c I was in a car and he doesn't want to get brushed by people on those small, widing roads.

Just my 2 cents. I happen to believe he was doping. If he had not been, I believe he would have fought it through to whatever end there is rather than throwing in the towel. Anybody with enough resolve to win 7 tours (even w/ doping) would have enough resolve to fight through to the end.

Again, just my opinion. YMMV.
 
Tommythewho said:
The tests only prove guilt but not innocence? Why is that ?
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The burden of proof is upon the prosecution. Mr. Armstrong does not have to prove that he is innocent. He is presumed innocent.

And you can't prove a negative anyway. Short of producing continuous video tape of every second of his life, there is no way for him to prove that he didn't do something. And so we can't ask or expect that. No. The burden of proof is upon the accuser, always.

And the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt." Hearsay is not beyond reasonable doubt. And eyewitness testimony after so many years is also full of reasonable doubt.

I want to see objective physical evidence. I want to see lab tests. And I have seen the lab tests and they are all negative.

At this point, I have zero respect for the USADA. And respect is what an agency like that needs more than anything else.
 
They are trying to prove him guilty, but he wants to walk away and give up.

I myself believe there should be a limit, though as to how long they can keep after a guy. It seems to me if they can't prove anything within a year after an event then it should be put to rest permanently. I mean what the heck, the guy could have committed many crimes and had the statute of limitation protecting him by now!
 
While its nice to believe in our 'heroes', I think we need to stop being naive. It is extremely likely that there is a large number of top athletes in sports who dope. It's also hilarious to suggest as someone did earlier that cycling is any worse than track and field. Cycling looks worse because it is much more rigorously tested. As every generation passes it turns out that we have been fooled by many of the top athletes in the previous generation. This was true for all the eastern European record setters in the cold war period, as it was for American sprinters afterwards.... Marion jones... Maurice green.... Etc

It's also interesting that Johan Blake was found having doped but only received a a ban of a few months. Usain Bolt's "strength and conditioning" coach was previously found guilty of enabling boxers to dope and was only allowed to return to coaching after implicating other bigger fish. It should also be remembered that the Jamaican dope control guys have great difficulty even finding Jamaican athletes for testing as very often they are 'unable to find them'... It's also interesting that these guys are beating records set by known dopers.

Regarding testing, it is more than possible to take the drugs 6 months before and still be enjoying considerably improved results. As a former 'pharamceuticals' dealer had admitted in an interview with the Times, merely testing a the Olympics is really no more than an IQ test

I don't want to be a killjoy on this one, but I think it's right that we have a healthy scepticism.
 
The guy beat cancer. Everything post that was just a bonus. The only epitaph he needs is: 'Lucky to be alive'.
 
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