LC200N - Best Edge for Durability

[brainsxn]

^This is right right here.
Spydiechef is my small EDC knife. I sharpen it with the sharp makers ceramics and when it gets bad need to hit it up with diamonds. I don't put it on the Wicked Edge because it just can't keep insane edges and doesn't benefit from perfect geometry fenagling. The steel is an easy steel just to whip up in a 30 degree and go to work. It's not a super cutter, but will last you a lot longer that non-serrated than H-1, which ofc should be used serrated.

doesn´t out last my H1 by much. I use my H1 aqua as a kitchen knife. Not serrated. My point, neither keep the insane edge for long. And since LC200N has the hype that it lasts longer than H1, its really kind of disappointing. Looking for a better sharpening technique. Currently attempting the dual grit.

 

[brainsxn]

I own a couple Lc200n knives, Native 5 Salt and the Spydiechef but haven't ever sharpened either one and have never used the Chef. Looking forward to the responses.

So Im trying to revive this thread and review everyone´s experience. What sharpening technique has given your LC200N the longest life?

 

[brainsxn]

I have only used a medium toothy edge. I am curious to hear how a more polished edge performs. I mostly use a norton crystolon medium grit bench stone. I do use the regular medium ceramic in the sharp maker for touch ups.

Its been almost a year. So Im trying to revive this thread and review everyone´s experience. What sharpening technique has given your LC200N the longest life?

 

[brainsxn]

My new LC200n salt 2 SE defintly runs out of gas edge wise in the week I have had it , hopefully after Christmas I can have a sharpmaker express shipped to get it keen again
kinda disappointed in the steel, might need to buy a vg10 serrated for long term edc on the ranch

So Im trying to revive this thread and review everyone´s experience. What sharpening technique has given your LC200N the longest life?

 

[brainsxn]

If you are willing to lower the edge angle significantly then you can go to a much higher grit rated edge without needing to use extreme coarse finishes to keep up cutting performance. This is one of the many advantages of steel like LC200N or similar AEB-L is that you can really drop the edge angles A LOT, as half the degrees or more from what they come factory. Then you get extreme cutting ability and sufficient edge stability to actually keep that edge cutting for a long time AND you do not have to resort to diamond or CBN in order to use the finer grits and have them cut well.

Help me understand here. The difference between slicing and push cutting? In the end, its still steel edge going either down into or diagonally down into the next media (paper, cheese, steak, cardboard). How grit varies for direction of cutting doesn´t really make sense to me. (I am genuinely asking to learn) I can see how grit may matter (as in toothiness) for the media like steak vs cheese. Geometry I get as well as in a flat grind sticks to the cheese but the hollow grind separates it out nicely.

All to understand better your ultimate recommendation as well as understanding knives better (clearly you demonstrate awesome understanding and thats why I am asking). Should I be using 10 degrees on LC200N? With medium to fine grit maybe 1000 to 2000 grit for the longest lasting edge for say paper cutting? Am I following you correctly? Take the microphone, man. I want to hear everything you have to say!

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

Help me understand here. The difference between slicing and push cutting? In the end, its still steel edge going either down into or diagonally down into the next media (paper, cheese, steak, cardboard). How grit varies for direction of cutting doesn´t really make sense to me. (I am genuinely asking to learn) I can see how grit may matter (as in toothiness) for the media like steak vs cheese. Geometry I get as well as in a flat grind sticks to the cheese but the hollow grind separates it out nicely.

All to understand better your ultimate recommendation as well as understanding knives better (clearly you demonstrate awesome understanding and thats why I am asking). Should I be using 10 degrees on LC200N? With medium to fine grit maybe 1000 to 2000 grit for the longest lasting edge for say paper cutting? Am I following you correctly? Take the microphone, man. I want to hear everything you have to say!

A true push cut happens when the knife is held at 90 degree angle to the material being cut AND no 'draw' is used to change what part of the edge is making contact in the cut. You can do that by either pulling/pushing the knife (sawing) or changing the angle of presentation to the cut. So if you were simply push cutting printer paper there would only be a very tiny section of edge doing the cutting. Cutting on a slice you can draw the entire edge along the cut and make contact with every inch of the blade during the stroke. This is how most people cut in general as there are few cutting chores that require a true push cut. Shaving is one of them, cutting wood is another and even this may have some degree of slice unintentionally or not.

I wouldn't say that you 'should' be using 10 DPS on LC200N as one, I despise that word and the judgement it casts upon others. That is where I would suggest starting as a point to experiment with as ultimately your cutting technique/skill will have just as much over an impact on how this holds up for you as the material you will be cutting. In general if you are not chopping then 10 DPS should hold up for most knives and cutting (assuming no chopping or batonning) but this only applies to the edge bevel itself. The type of steel and hardening may require that you use a micro-bevel, in addition to the 10 DPS bevel, at a much steeper angle in order to sufficiently strengthen the apex for more brittle steels such as high carbide steels, etc.

If you're only slicing then actually the coarsest edge you can get sharp is going to last the longest. The other fact to understand is that the lower edge angle will continue cutting the longest in general. You can take a very low carbide/soft steel and sharpen it in a way that it will outperform even the highest carbide/hardness steels on the market. This is done by lowering the edge angle sufficiently and increasing the coarseness of the apex finish Most people do not have a grasp of this concept and will purchase very high carbide steels and take them to a high polish at the apex, which will of course severely limit slicing aggression and edge retention. Which is a bit of a strange thing as HC steels are best suited to high angles/low grit apex.

If you're only push cutting then you'll want to have the sharpest use possible using the highest grit finish you can apply to the apex cleanly. This will allow less force applied to the apex in cutting and subsequently higher edge retention as it enters the material with less resistance.

 

[FrannaM]

On my native LC200 PE it is hands down 20 degrees 1200grit. On my Salt 2 LC200 PE I don't get the same edge retention. I have used the exact same method but don't get close to the Native's edge holding. Don't know why...

 

[brainsxn]

A true push cut happens when the knife is held at 90 degree angle to the material being cut AND no 'draw' is used to change what part of the edge is making contact in the cut. You can do that by either pulling/pushing the knife (sawing) or changing the angle of presentation to the cut. So if you were simply push cutting printer paper there would only be a very tiny section of edge doing the cutting. Cutting on a slice you can draw the entire edge along the cut and make contact with every inch of the blade during the stroke. This is how most people cut in general as there are few cutting chores that require a true push cut. Shaving is one of them, cutting wood is another and even this may have some degree of slice unintentionally or not.

I wouldn't say that you 'should' be using 10 DPS on LC200N as one, I despise that word and the judgement it casts upon others. That is where I would suggest starting as a point to experiment with as ultimately your cutting technique/skill will have just as much over an impact on how this holds up for you as the material you will be cutting. In general if you are not chopping then 10 DPS should hold up for most knives and cutting (assuming no chopping or batonning) but this only applies to the edge bevel itself. The type of steel and hardening may require that you use a micro-bevel, in addition to the 10 DPS bevel, at a much steeper angle in order to sufficiently strengthen the apex for more brittle steels such as high carbide steels, etc.

If you're only slicing then actually the coarsest edge you can get sharp is going to last the longest. The other fact to understand is that the lower edge angle will continue cutting the longest in general. You can take a very low carbide/soft steel and sharpen it in a way that it will outperform even the highest carbide/hardness steels on the market. This is done by lowering the edge angle sufficiently and increasing the coarseness of the apex finish Most people do not have a grasp of this concept and will purchase very high carbide steels and take them to a high polish at the apex, which will of course severely limit slicing aggression and edge retention. Which is a bit of a strange thing as HC steels are best suited to high angles/low grit apex.

If you're only push cutting then you'll want to have the sharpest use possible using the highest grit finish you can apply to the apex cleanly. This will allow less force applied to the apex in cutting and subsequently higher edge retention as it enters the material with less resistance.

Wow. Thank you so much for the response. Outstanding.

 

[brainsxn]

So I did a dual grit sharpening. 200 grit on one side 3000 grit on the other. (diamond plates. its what I had available. diamond compound strop)
I was basing it on this youtube video by Pete.

And so far very nice. very sharp. slices paper and cardboard very well. Although, still loses its hair shaving sharpness fairly quickly. I think this is the best LC200N is going to do.

 

[Another Shepherd]

... This is one of the many advantages of steel like LC200N or similar AEB-L is that you can really drop the edge angles A LOT, as half the degrees or more from what they come factory. Then you get extreme cutting ability and sufficient edge stability to actually keep that edge cutting for a long time AND you do not have to resort to diamond or CBN in order to use the finer grits and have them cut well.

Very interesting. I have two plain-edge Spydercos with LC200N, a Pacific Salt 2 and a Subway Bowie. They have inclusive angles in the 50-60 degree range. Evidently, I need to do some serious reprofiling.

Thank you for sharing your expertise!

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

Very interesting. I have two plain-edge Spydercos with LC200N, a Pacific Salt 2 and a Subway Bowie. They have inclusive angles in the 50-60 degree range. Evidently, I need to do some serious reprofiling.

Thank you for sharing your expertise!

It's worth noting that LC200N is basically a modification of AEB-L, which is designed originally for use in razor blades (which are designed to have high edge stability at low angle). The benefit to having this class of steel is you can increase performance in many ways by lowering edge angles from where yours are currently and actually increase edge retention, ease of sharpening (with microbevels), cutting ability, etc. Lowering the angle eliminates the need for carbide rich steels to boost edge retention in some types of cutting as a more keen angle will allow the edge to stay at a thinner width as the apex wears so it will continue to cut longer by this fact alone. The wider the angle, the thicker the apex gets more quickly as it wears.

 

[Another Shepherd]

It's worth noting that LC200N is basically a modification of AEB-L, which is designed originally for use in razor blades (which are designed to have high edge stability at low angle). The benefit to having this class of steel is you can increase performance in many ways by lowering edge angles from where yours are currently and actually increase edge retention, ease of sharpening (with microbevels), cutting ability, etc. Lowering the angle eliminates the need for carbide rich steels to boost edge retention in some types of cutting as a more keen angle will allow the edge to stay at a thinner width as the apex wears so it will continue to cut longer by this fact alone. The wider the angle, the thicker the apex gets more quickly as it wears.

Would the same apply to H1? My old Pacific Salt with H1 had a 29 degree inclusive angle out of the box. I sharpened it a few times at 15 degrees per side. The edge retention seemed not all that bad to me, not quite as good as an Endura with VG-10 at 40 degrees inclusive.

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

Would the same apply to H1? My old Pacific Salt with H1 had a 29 degree inclusive angle out of the box. I sharpened it a few times at 15 degrees per side. The edge retention seemed not all that bad to me, not quite as good as an Endura with VG-10 at 40 degrees inclusive.

I would say that is far more than is needed for most uses and H1/H2. Cliff Stamp had actually taken his Salt in H1 to full zero grind by simply sharpening the full primary bevel which is around 6 DPS. H1 is a very tough steel so you really want to take advantage of this to get the maximum cutting ability. The other benefit of the steel is that it's very easy to grind so that even grinding the entire primary grind the way he did to sharpen would not be a terrible thing even to grind away damage at the edge.

 

[chalby]

It's worth noting that LC200N is basically a modification of AEB-L, which is designed originally for use in razor blades (which are designed to have high edge stability at low angle). The benefit to having this class of steel is you can increase performance in many ways by lowering edge angles from where yours are currently and actually increase edge retention, ease of sharpening (with microbevels), cutting ability, etc. Lowering the angle eliminates the need for carbide rich steels to boost edge retention in some types of cutting as a more keen angle will allow the edge to stay at a thinner width as the apex wears so it will continue to cut longer by this fact alone. The wider the angle, the thicker the apex gets more quickly as it wears.

From what I have read, LC200N has very little to do with AEB-L other than being a low carbide stainless steel with high toughness. Cronidur 30 (LC200N) was developed independently for use in bearings and has about half the carbon of AEB-L

AEB-L in theory has much better potential for edge stability (and potential for using more acute edge angles) due to the higher hardness that it is capable of. LC200N and even more so H1 would probably suffer from rolling of the edge compared to a higher hardness AEB-L in similar hard use, although should still be very good.

Having said that I generally sharpen most of my knives at a thinner angle than factory for the added edge retention, even steels that have average toughness.

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

From what I have read, LC200N has very little to do with AEB-L other than being a low carbide stainless steel with high toughness. Cronidur 30 (LC200N) was developed independently for use in bearings and has about half the carbon of AEB-L

AEB-L in theory has much better potential for edge stability (and potential for using more acute edge angles) due to the higher hardness that it is capable of. LC200N and even more so H1 would probably suffer from rolling of the edge compared to a higher hardness AEB-L in similar hard use, although should still be very good.

Having said that I generally sharpen most of my knives at a thinner angle than factory for the added edge retention, even steels that have average toughness.

I don't say that to mean AEB-L was direct starting point for LC200N development but to say that they are so closely related compositionally that you could say it is like a modified version of AEB-L. What you say is also indeed correct about being able to sharpen most any steel at lower angles than factory. Factory knives are designed for the 'average' user, which is to say of course that they are not generally well educated in knife use and maintenance. They design edges which are difficult to damage in a way that would require a trip back to the factory and this means they are all overbuilt for someone who really uses knives and has a bit of knowledge.

Much of the other side of performance at a given edge angle is how the knives were sharpened and maintained. If you're the type of person to sharpen a knife very little in relation to how much work you do, then a higher carbide steel may be something which is preferable to you. If you carry tools for sharpening and are willing to use as needed then damage in use is not some mythical beast that cannot be slayed and it becomes trivial to fix minor damage/rolling/etc. and you still get all the benefits of edge retention/cutting ability and more importantly from my perspective --- safety. Ideal cutting geometry provides for the safest knife possible as you can use only the minimum required force to make a cut rather than bearing down hard.

 

[chalby]

I don't say that to mean AEB-L was direct starting point for LC200N development but to say that they are so closely related compositionally that you could say it is like a modified version of AEB-L.

It's not though. That's not what modified means. It's also very different in composition and in the way the steel is produced. For a start LC200N has quite a high amount of nitrogen which is only possible using a special high pressure furnace, and there is also 1% molybdenum as well, whereas AEB-L is basically just a carbon/chromium alloy. 0.3% compared to almost 0.7% carbon is also a huge difference when comparing alloys, not to mention the massive difference in corrosion resistance due to all of those differences in composition.

OK, we're going into semantics and so it's a bit of a pointless argument but I think it would be more correct to say it has some similar attributes to AEB-L like high toughness and an ability to work well with a thinner edge rather than say it's modified AEB-L.

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

It's not though. That's not what modified means. It's also very different in composition and in the way the steel is produced. For a start LC200N has quite a high amount of nitrogen which is only possible using a special high pressure furnace, and there is also 1% molybdenum as well, whereas AEB-L is basically just a carbon/chromium alloy. 0.3% compared to almost 0.7% carbon is also a huge difference when comparing alloys, not to mention the massive difference in corrosion resistance due to all of those differences in composition.

OK, we're going into semantics and so it's a bit of a pointless argument but I think it would be more correct to say it has some similar attributes to AEB-L like high toughness and an ability to work well with a thinner edge rather than say it's modified AEB-L.

Sure, perhaps that term is more specific than I intended and I'm certainly no metallurgist but class-wise and behavior wise they are very similar aside from corrosion resistance. Can you show me a steel that is a closer composition without it just being the same steel relabeled something else?

 

[chalby]

Sure, perhaps that term is more specific than I intended and I'm certainly no metallurgist but class-wise and behavior wise they are very similar aside from corrosion resistance. Can you show me a steel that is a closer composition without it just being the same steel relabeled something else?

There are numerous steels that are arguably closer in composition(4116, Nitro V, BD1N, 14C28N for example) but it's kind of irrelevant; they are different steels. 14C28N is a modified AEB-L.

But anyway, I agree with all of your points about the high toughness properties of both steels.