LC200N vs Vanax Superclean

Looks like i will be joining this soon.
I have a customer that wants to do this exact test. Zfinit (LC200N) vs Vanax.

Same blade shape and edge thickness, same blade shape.
Shooting for 60HRC for Z-Finit , and trying to hit 60.5HRC for vanax. I feel that the vanax will be better at a higher hardness but dont wanna go to 61HRC. As he wanted similar hardness on both. Definitely not a cheap build.
So far PHT has been great with zfinit. 60HRC is tough, great edge holding, and seems impervious to corrosion (need to do my own testing) from what i have seen. Hoping they have a good HT for vanax, but im sure they are dialing it in.
 
ShannonSteelLabs said:
Looks like i will be joining this soon.
I have a customer that wants to do this exact test. Zfinit (LC200N) vs Vanax.

Same blade shape and edge thickness, same blade shape.
Shooting for 60HRC for Z-Finit , and trying to hit 60.5HRC for vanax. I feel that the vanax will be better at a higher hardness but dont wanna go to 61HRC. As he wanted similar hardness on both. Definitely not a cheap build.
So far PHT has been great with zfinit. 60HRC is tough, great edge holding, and seems impervious to corrosion (need to do my own testing) from what i have seen. Hoping they have a good HT for vanax, but im sure they are dialing it in.
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60hrc is about the limit for Vanax too. You can get secondary harnesses to 62rc upon high tempering but you lose the benefits of stainproof steel. I haven't personally tested at that hardness.
 
DeadboxHero said:
60hrc is about the limit for Vanax too. You can get secondary harnesses to 62rc upon high tempering but you lose the benefits of stainproof steel. I haven't personally tested at that hardness.
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The issue now becomes that people have the perception that higher HRC is always better.

What advantage does LC200N have over lets say Nitro V or even 14C28N that has a higher obtainable hardness and still very corrosion resistant? If people are chasing HRC numbers.

Just some shower thoughts reading your post but I do believe people are goung to complain and not truly understand these steels early on because of perception on HRC.
 
marthinus said:
What advantage does LC200N have over lets say Nitro V or even 14C28N that has a higher obtainable hardness and still very corrosion resistant? If people are chasing HRC numbers.
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Well, in my mind, two things.

Regardless of HRC, LC200N did very well in edge retention tests:
226 cuts is on par with S35VN or Elmax, and 2.5x the edge retention of 14C28N. So yes, I agree, HRC isn't everything, but testing does show it's an incredible steel.

Plus, 14C28N may be relatively rust resistant, but it's not up to the same level as LC200N. I just did some testing on the Spyderco LC200N mule vs an AEB-L blade (see the Spyderco forum, the LC200N corrosion thread, for details), and LC200N beat AEB-L easily. Vanax beat LC200N, but with a lot of questions left open on that result.

So, yeah, sending a Vanax blade over to the Cedric and Ada channel for testing will show how it stacks up against LC200N and others. If it can beat LC200N in edge retention (which would put in alongside XHP and S90V), and still show itself to be effectively rustproof, it'll be a crazy awesome steel.

Do I need something that rust resistant? No, of course not. But it'd be damn cool to have it!
 
marthinus said:
The issue now becomes that people have the perception that higher HRC is always better.

What advantage does LC200N have over lets say Nitro V or even 14C28N that has a higher obtainable hardness and still very corrosion resistant? If people are chasing HRC numbers.

Just some shower thoughts reading your post but I do believe people are goung to complain and not truly understand these steels early on because of perception on HRC.
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I agree but I can't control what people perceive with limited knowledge. The superior microstructure for the given steel is King not the HRC. There are always exceptions to everything, but my Vanax is at 60hrc and not 62hrc so that explains alot.
 
Very interesting.
The vanax blade im working on will be just over 60HRC. (Shooting for 60.5HRC)
I dont plan on going any higher than that, i will try to contact PHT to see what they feel is the best hardness. If 60HRC is better i will shoot for that. I want to get all the best attributes out of the Vanax. Not shooting for crazy edge holding at high hardness, but i want it to be balanced. So it should beat LC200N/Zfinit.

In my experience Z-Finit/LC200N has pretty good edge holding at 60HRC. And its pretty easy to sharpen, and takes a wicked sharp edge. Currently its my favorite stainless, followed by CPM 20CV. It will be very interesting to see Vanax compared.
Might even make myself a test blade with the extra steel!
 
ShannonSteelLabs said:
Very interesting.
The vanax blade im working on will be just over 60HRC. (Shooting for 60.5HRC)
I dont plan on going any higher than that, i will try to contact PHT to see what they feel is the best hardness. If 60HRC is better i will shoot for that. I want to get all the best attributes out of the Vanax. Not shooting for crazy edge holding at high hardness, but i want it to be balanced. So it should beat LC200N/Zfinit.

In my experience Z-Finit/LC200N has pretty good edge holding at 60HRC. And its pretty easy to sharpen, and takes a wicked sharp edge. Currently its my favorite stainless, followed by CPM 20CV. It will be very interesting to see Vanax compared.
Might even make myself a test blade with the extra steel!
Click to expand...
PM sent.

I'll make a post about HRC when I have time
 
True

1) High hrc without good microstructure = poor ht. For vanax, poor ht won't/can't produces 62+ hrc.

2) Incomplete transformation (could has been good) microstructure = resulted with a below-optimal hrc at tempered (e.g. 200c/390f) = not optimal ht. For example - empirical 62rc is a good hardness for small blades, however end up with a 60hrc - thus below optimal result.

3) Combination of good microstructure and high hrc = good ht. At same working hrc as 1) & 2), this result will performs better for most of time. It is always better to have option to pick good performance hrc per intended usage - whilst 1 & 2 constraint hrc range to below 60.5rc.

Cognizant the differences between chasing optimal performance vs comforted with good-enough.
 
I doubt Vanax will has the edge holding of Elmax ... it properly tougher but would be lower at wear resistance/usable hardness.
 
shqxk said:
I doubt Vanax will has the edge holding of Elmax ... it properly tougher but would be lower at wear resistance/usable hardness.
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We'll have to see, of course, but going based on specs, I would expect Vanax to have better edge retention than LC200N - more carbon, nitrogen and vanadium, plus Vanax is a powder steel, so theoretically smaller carbides (nitrides?).

Given that the Cedric and Ada tests found LC200N to be almost as good as Elmax (226 cuts vs 236), I wouldn't be surprised if Vanax outperforms both, by a respectable amount.

Tons of caveats on that, though, especially around the Elmax they tested having come from ZT, which I don't think has a stellar reputation with Elmax heat treat results. It'd be interesting to get a third blade from ShannonSteelLabs ShannonSteelLabs , in Elmax but with the same exact geometry, etc., and a Peter's Heat Treat, and compare against Vanax. If you want to donate $200 to get that done, let me know ;). For science!
 
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I looked up their tests:
https://www.everydaycommentary.com/...17/7/7/cedric-and-adas-steel-test-and-results

They do a pretty good job, but they leave off a couple key variables: Rc hardness and edge width at the shoulders. Either of those factors alone can make a big difference, together they can make a huge difference. Plus the sharpening protocol is a little loose.

The results are more or less what I'd expect, but there are a lot of surprises, such as their results for S110V and M4.



tyyreaun said:
We'll have to see, of course, but going based on specs, I would expect Vanax to have better edge retention than LC200N - more carbon, nitrogen and vanadium, plus Vanax is a powder steel, so theoretically smaller carbides (nitrides?).

Given that the Cedric and Ada tests found LC200N to be almost as good as Elmax (226 cuts vs 236), I wouldn't be surprised if Vanax outperforms both, by a respectable amount.

Tons of caveats on that, though, especially around the Elmax they tested having come from ZT, which I don't think has a stellar reputation with Elmax heat treat results. It'd be interesting to get a third blade from ShannonSteelLabs ShannonSteelLabs , in Elmax but with the same exact geometry, etc., and a Peter's Heat Treat, and compare against Vanax. If you want to donate $200 to get that done, let me know ;). For science!
Click to expand...
 
Twindog said:
I looked up their tests:
https://www.everydaycommentary.com/...17/7/7/cedric-and-adas-steel-test-and-results

They do a pretty good job, but they leave off a couple key variables: Rc hardness and edge width at the shoulders. Either of those factors alone can make a big difference, together they can make a huge difference. Plus the sharpening protocol is a little loose.

The results are more or less what I'd expect, but there are a lot of surprises, such as their results for S110V and M4.
Click to expand...

not related to the subject ... but again with regard to testing
Cedric and Ada, however much they should admit, recognize this work
in the other hand, these tests are far too deficient and more fun than they should
seriously refer to them ...
when I see just how Cerdic is holding the knife and at what angle he cuts o_O
These tests are just fun for youtube.

the man who performed tests on the far scientific method in a wider range
https://www.youtube.com/user/pavolko10/videos
http://www.fotogaleria.sandor.sk/ine/ostrie/Vysledky_testov.pdf
 
chumaman said:
not related to the subject ... but again with regard to testing
Cedric and Ada, however much they should admit, recognize this work
in the other hand, these tests are far too deficient and more fun than they should
seriously refer to them ...
when I see just how Cerdic is holding the knife and at what angle he cuts o_O
These tests are just fun for youtube.

the man who performed tests on the far scientific method in a wider range
https://www.youtube.com/user/pavolko10/videos
http://www.fotogaleria.sandor.sk/ine/ostrie/Vysledky_testov.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links! I don't think anyone ever claimed Cedric and Ada performs fully controlled scientific experiments, but Pete's results are better than most of the guesswork out there.

I'll check out the channel you sent, but there may be a language barrier... I'm trying to decipher the XLSX file, too, and even that's pretty confusing - which column shows the results?
 
tyyreaun said:
We'll have to see, of course, but going based on specs, I would expect Vanax to have better edge retention than LC200N - more carbon, nitrogen and vanadium, plus Vanax is a powder steel, so theoretically smaller carbides (nitrides?).

Given that the Cedric and Ada tests found LC200N to be almost as good as Elmax (226 cuts vs 236), I wouldn't be surprised if Vanax outperforms both, by a respectable amount.

Tons of caveats on that, though, especially around the Elmax they tested having come from ZT, which I don't think has a stellar reputation with Elmax heat treat results. It'd be interesting to get a third blade from ShannonSteelLabs ShannonSteelLabs , in Elmax but with the same exact geometry, etc., and a Peter's Heat Treat, and compare against Vanax. If you want to donate $200 to get that done, let me know ;). For science!
Click to expand...
Im game to try it out!!
 
Mo2 said:
Dunno about that. What tests have you done?
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I just guessing base on alloy composition and steel factory data sheet. The paper said Vanax is tougher than Elmax but no any detail about wear resistance and the max hardness is only 60HRC. You can't have a steel that superior in every aspect it just a matter of metallurgy.
 
Mfg stated vanax max 60hrc doesn't applied to everyone...

Here is my vanax 62.5rc (tempered 350F, note: AQ/peak hardness was 63rc) blade waiting for a handle.

AQfbwBg.jpg


A xlink to test result of BCMW 61.5+rc vanax knife - http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77127&start=74

Next vanax blades - I will try to produce 64rc AQ, in turn 62.5rc at 390F temper(or 63rc at 350F).
 
shqxk said:
You can't have a steel that superior in every aspect it just a matter of metallurgy.
Click to expand...

You can’t within a certain paradigm of the state of the art. Just like powder metallurgy moved the state of the art as to what’s possible with steels, the new breed of nitrogen based steels may be moving it even further.

May be moving it, of course. That’s what the testing is for ;)
 
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