Least favorite knife steel

[Bugout Bill]

This.

Only time I can remember not purchasing a knife that I liked strictly because of the steel is one that was 440A. 420hc, 440c, even 420j2, they all have their uses, but 440a just turns me into a steel snob.

One thing that turns people off of 440A (or C for that matter) is that they are very seldom using "real" 440A. They are typically using some sort of steel (cough cough Chinese) that roughly resembles 440 in terms of performance. Add a questionable heat treat and you have a recipe for a very poor experience.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Double Post.

 

[roughedges]

What's wrong with 420HC? I have a leatherman crater 420HC and it seems fine, but I've only used it for light work

Nothing wrong with 420hc. It's almost sacrilege to say in some circles, but, in some ways it is a better steel than the high end boutique and super stuff. In a survival, shtf, etc. situation, or even just out in the field for an extended time without a sharpening stone? I'll take 420hc or a soft carbon steel over zdp-189 (for instance, and which I also like) in a heartbeat. I like 440c as well, been meaning to try an Entrek one of these days.

 

[Ernie1980]

420jc is terrible steel. Another one I dislike is actually considered a high end steel, ZDP189. It's too difficult to sharpen to be useful to me.

 

[co556guy]

I had the same problem with my 0350, it was a chipping machine. I'm not sure if it was because it was an early production knife, I got it when they first came out, but it would chip so easily that it turned me off to S30V completely. I'm just now getting to the point where I'm willing to trust S30V again after having a couple Ritter Grips and a BM 940 that have performed very well. It seems that at times, ZT's various steels have been problematic.

It's not just you. I put too thin of a grind on some of my S30V spyderco's and they were chipping maniacs. I got chips on a closed Yojimbo 2, from putting my keys in the same pocket it was in.

I've since put more obtuse grinds on them and have had better luck with the chipping. My 0350 hasn't ever shown that tendency though.

 

[dkb45]

Eesh, so much steel snobbery going on here

I kind of hate S30V because of how quickly it loses its razor edge. Couple that with being a COMPLETE B**** to reprofile and it makes for a really fun day...

I also hate everything under 420hc. Too poor of edge retention for me.

I don't get why so many people rag on 440c, 420hc, and 8Cr13MoV. They don't have the best edge retention, but they are easy to sharpen, and for people who know how to sharpen make excellent light users. They just take a moment to touch up back to razor sharp.

 

[Lennyo3034]

You are claiming you chipped that thick blade on......tape.

Not sure what happened, but the edge is obviously chipped:

The front Serration has been chipped significantly:

The only thing I've used it for was to open boxes, and even then, not often as I have many other knives and this is not often on the rotation. I actually really like the design and ergos, just don't like the steel.

Don't really think it's the steel (in regards to the 530), it's the blade/tip thickness and width.. The 530 is a delicate knife, not a *fair example of proper steel strength IMHO.

Good point. I'd imagine not a lot of steels wouldn't chip on that blade design.

 

[DShiflet]

I don't get why so many people rag on 440c, 420hc, and 8Cr13MoV. They don't have the best edge retention, but they are easy to sharpen, and for people who know how to sharpen make excellent light users. They just take a moment to touch up back to razor sharp.

This. 8Cr13MoV doesn't hold an edge incredibly long or anything, but it's super easy to resharpen and is generally used in knives that cost $15-20, it's not meant to be a premium steel that never needs resharpening.

 

[NeverMore1701]

Pretty unimpressed with S35VN, at least as soft as CRK runs it.

 

[FCM415]

I'm spoiled with these uber super steels, its hard to go back to Aus8 or even 154CM. I've had my share of 8cR13mOv, not a bad steel but the edge just dies way too soon that what I'm used to these days so I pass.

I dont have any experience with 420j1 as a bladesteel but it is used as a laminate over my Caly 3.5 CF and my new Endura SuperBlue. I'd rather NOT have them laminated especially in 420j1 as it seems to show scratches easy. In fact, both my knives came in with hairline scratches out of the box, purely cosmetic but annoying.

 

[james terrio]

I'm not talking about bottom of the barrel gas station knife steels, but rather steels that are generally accepted as good that you just plain don't like.

This is gonna ruffle some feathers, but within those parameters, and especially with custom/handmade/high-end knives in mind, I gotta say D2. Cheese and rice, what a "sacred cow" that alloy is...

I tried to like it, I really did, based on its reputation as a classic steel. I do own a factory folder in D2 that works fine, but I'm glad I didn't pay any more for it than I did. As a maker, I made and tested several blades with both D2 and CPM-D2, and ended up selling off the rest of my barstock at a loss to buy more CPM-154. Call me spoiled, but it's just... not all that great.

It's at least as difficult to sharpen as CPM-3V, but nowhere near as tough and doesn't keep an edge any longer. It pretty much has to be left with a machine finish or stonewash; it looks just awful with a hand-satin or high polish. It's a real pain to get an optimal HT on, and even then it's barely in the same class as CPM-154 for edge-retention, and certainly not in terms of ease of sharpening or corrosion-resistance. It grinds slower and "gummier" than Elmax or CTS-XHP, and has absolutely no advantage over them in performance. (relatively) Giant chunks of carbides that tear out as the knife is used are not a big selling point to me - if I want a toothy edge I'll back down a step in my sharpening process.

Sure, you can get the same chemistry with better structure in CPM-D2, but that still doesn't match the others I've mentioned in any regard, yet it costs about the same. I'm pretty sure Crucible doesn't even make the CPM version anymore, so that point is moot anyway.

I fully understand that at one point (somewhere around the time of disco) D2 was considered a super-steel in the knife world, but c'mon... we're in the second decade of the 21st century.

It is cheap, though. Come to think of it, pretty much all the same points apply to 440C as well... especially the junk that's been coming out of (foreign?) mills the last few years.

OK, /rant off. Hey, you asked

 

[dkb45]

Sorry James, you are just wrong. The flogging is scheduled for Tuesday.

I love me some D2, but I haven't tried many of the alternatives. I've had Elmax and 1095, and both of those are in different categories. I would love to try out the alternatives, but unfortunately most knife makers have very few knives for $0. If you know of any, let me know.

I have found D2 to be a nightmare to reprofile and handle chips with, though. The rust resistance is also mediocre unless it is highly polished or stonewashed. Normal satin and light polish suck, and don't even get me started on bead blasted.

 

[james terrio]

I love me some D2, but I haven't tried many of the alternatives.

Then you literally don't know what you're missing. If you love D2, you really owe it to yourself to try CPM-3V. If you require higher corrosion-resistance, go for Elmax or CTS-XHP.

... I've had Elmax ... different categories...

Actually, not really. Knife guys tend to think of Elmax as a purpose-made stainless cutlery steel like S35VN. But like CTS-XHP, it was designed specifically for the plastics industry to replace D2 and similar alloys as a die steel.

Sorry James, you are just wrong. The flogging is scheduled for Tuesday.

I'm busy on Tuesday.

 

[Planterz]

Too much talk about specific steel alloys, and not enough about heat treatment.

For example, 420HC. Case (they call it Tru-Sharp) treats it pretty soft, so it mimics their CV steel. Easy to sharpen, gets really sharp, but doesn't hold an edge very long. Wire edges can be an issue. Then there's Buck. Some people complain that it's too difficult to sharpen.

Blade geometry plays a big part too.

People are too hung-up on the specific steel a knife has. Users should be more focused on why a particular knife is made with a particular steel. Is it because it's trendy? Is it because it's the "latest and greatest"? Or is it because they chose a specific steel at a specific hardness because it was the best choice for that specific knife's blade geometry and intended use?

 

[bladeboss]

Haha, I'm going to put that in my sig if you don't mind. Good stuff bro:thumbup:

Don't mind at all.
The main reason I hate 8Cr13MOV is because of rust. I've had DRY blades rust. Just from sitting in my cabinet.
And my uncle used (well, tried) to use my Tenacious to cut up a huge box. It was dull in 5 cuts or so.

 

[james terrio]

Too much talk about specific steel alloys, and not enough about heat treatment.

A fair point! As in your Case example, 1095 and 420HC (and most other steels) are almost always run way too soft in factory knives. This is not entirely, as most will claim, because it's more user-friendly that way. It's because most factories grind their blades when already hardened, and a few Rc points lower saves buckets of dollars a year on wear-and-tear to their grinding equipment.

Users should be more focused on why a particular knife is made with a particular steel.

With mass-produced knives, as often as not, it's a simple cost issue. Raw material cost, availability, ease of HT and machinability/grindability all play a huge role in a company's bottom line. Folks need to keep that in mind when a special edition comes out, with steel that costs $5/knife more than the standard, but the finished product costs $10 or $30 more.

 

[Bugout Bill]

With mass-produced knives, as often as not, it's a simple cost issue. Raw material cost, availability, ease of HT and machinability/grindability all play a huge role in a company's bottom line. Folks need to keep that in mind when a special edition comes out, with steel that costs $5/knife more than the standard, but the finished product costs $10 or $30 more.

Or it is a hype issue. People will be willing to pay for a super steel, even if it isn't appropriate for the type of application that the knife is being designed for.

 

[Raylas]

For me: Any steel heavily prone to rust. 1095,5160,51-200, D2, and M4 are all in this category. Why? Simple: I. Do. Not. Like. Rust. Nothing bugs me more than seeing a great design..... and seeing it in a corrosion prone steel.

My sweat eats any steel that lacks a significant degree of chromium in it, the steels rust from air, it's humid during the summer where I dwell, and they don't hold a candle to modern stainless in edge retention or corrosion resistance.

 

[Ankerson]

With mass-produced knives, as often as not, it's a simple cost issue. Raw material cost, availability, ease of HT and machinability/grindability all play a huge role in a company's bottom line. Folks need to keep that in mind when a special edition comes out, with steel that costs $5/knife more than the standard, but the finished product costs $10 or $30 more.

Exactly.

Something like S110V costs more, that is raw materials AND equipment wear than the more standard steels used today.

So yeah the knives will cost more.....

 

[Ankerson]

Or it is a hype issue. People will be willing to pay for a super steel, even if it isn't appropriate for the type of application that the knife is being designed for.

Most of the super steels are TOOL STEELS so they aren't exactly weak to start with so they tend to have a broader range of use than people might think.