Leave No Trace - Fires?

[dextersp1]

I have a question about fires and 'Leave No Trace' backpacking.

When building a fire do you follow LNT techniques (I'm not talking in established or approved camping areas)? If not why not?

When I'm in the wilderness and I come across a camp fire blackened area; it subtracts from the experience.

I use a canister stove for cooking.

http://www.outdoor.com/skills/backpacking-skills/leave-no-trace/
If need you a fire, keep it small and away from rock outcrops. Instead of building a fire ring that blackens the rocks and creates a negative aesthetic impact, dig a small pit for your fire. After use, the ashes can be mixed with dirt to neutralize the site. Make sure the fire is dead out.

 

[smersh]

I agree. The version of "bushcraft" often discussed here is pretty destructive. OK on private land and remote wilderness, really terrible on public land that gets regular traffic. Especially bad in any state or national park.

It's always worth asking ourselves what would happen if 10 people came through this place in a year using the same practices I'm using? Or 50? Or 100?

I usually use a white gas Whisperlite stove. The little gasification wood stoves are interesting, partly because they can allow you to have a small wood fire without leaving any trace. They're also far more efficient than an open fire, so you don't have to do much scavenging.

 

[kgd]

It really depends on the area. Personally, I think people take the leave no trace concepts to the extreme. The public is broadly taught to walk on, and only on the trails. They see somebody chopping a bit of clearly dead standing wood and they immediately think you are killing a tree. They assume that anything being done out there, outside of walking a groomed path is suspect and harmful.

I don't think going off trail on foot is all that bad. I try not crush new shoots and vegetative growth, but I also don't get all paranoid about it either. I often follow game trails, where those game are as heavy and leave even deeper imprints than I do.

I don't mind having a small fire in the outdoors. I make sure the fire is contained and as smokeless as possible. A small fire need not be busting large logs etc. If I'm going to do that then I'll do it in a designed fire ring. I use established fire rings in preference. However, base camping sometimes necessitates a small personal fire outside of what somebody thought was a good camp site. A small burn mark on the ground? Maybe it detracts from some peoples aesthetics, but it doesn't detract from nature. Nature gobbles up those nutrients released. The area around my place is actively maintained through control fires anyway. Try to find my burn marks within the 1 km scorched areas that have been purposely burned for prairie management.

When I see somebodies little burn mark I usually think, cool, somebody was here and then I scout the area for signs of what else they've done. The only time I get pissed is when I finnd beer bottles and garbage on site or unburried feces/toilet paper. I have no tolerance for that.

If the park posts no fires then I do respect that by using stoves and candle lanterns. If its not posted, then I use common sense and make sure that my fire isn't a liability. Really, I can't imagine personal fires having any types of aesthetic effects as described in the OP. But then again I don't go building bomb fires or try to burn large longs very often. They are just little stick fires and stuff. I have considered making one of those gassification stoves. They will still leave a little fire ring on the ground but no more than 6" in diameter, produce a nice smokeless fire good for warming yourself and cooking and primarily burn little dried twigs and pine cones and materials like that.

 

[akennedy73]

IMHO leave no trace is a relative concept. A "pretty destructive" bushcrafter goes into the woods and chops down some trees and vegetation for shelter and fuel. He leaves a trace.

A classic Leave-No-Trace advocate goes into the woods with a Whisperlite stove and burns fuel extracted in a foreign country, loaded on a supertanker, taken to a refinery, packaged and shipped to a camping goods store, and finally burned in a stove. And he sleeps in a tent created from petrochemical plastics that went through the same complex supply chain.

Everyone should respect the remaining open and undeveloped lands in this world - and always keep in mind their impact. But also don't forget that the natural world doesn't stop at the trailhead - it extends all the way to the trace left in Houston where your white gas was refined.

 

[Brad "the butcher"]

IMHO leave no trace is a relative concept. A "pretty destructive" bushcrafter goes into the woods and chops down some trees and vegetation for shelter and fuel. He leaves a trace.

A classic Leave-No-Trace advocate goes into the woods with a Whisperlite stove and burns fuel extracted in a foreign country, loaded on a supertanker, taken to a refinery, packaged and shipped to a camping goods store, and finally burned in a stove. And he sleeps in a tent created from petrochemical plastics that went through the same complex supply chain.

Everyone should respect the remaining open and undeveloped lands in this world - and always keep in mind their impact. But also don't forget that the natural world doesn't stop at the trailhead - it extends all the way to the trace left in Houston where your white gas was refined.

damn straight, I love my whisperlite but just bring a hobo stove mostly now. Twigs and bit's burned clean with no ring and no impact.
Really want to make a gassification stove off the recent threads. The manufactured battery models look sweet but pricey.

 

[beef]

I have only small fires when camping. I use small wood that burns away completely, so no charred stumps in the morning. I spread out the coals/ ash after dousing with water. Once the ground is cool, I spread the leaf litter back over the spot I had the fire. Noone can tell I was there. And that's the way it should be. If anyone else goes offtrack and decides to camp in the same scenic spot, they can enjoy it for the pristine wilderness it is.

I don't feel the need to leave my own special marks in every campsite: fire scars, chopped trees (obviously too big for firewood and still alive...) broken glass, toilet paper held down by a stone (gee... noone will ever see it there). It's akin to a dog having to mark his territory everywhere he goes. Some campers seem to crave "taming" the wilderness.

I figure the bush shouldn't be worse off AFTER I've visited.

 

[smersh]

I don't disagree with any of these comments -- it's ultimately about thinking thoughtfully about where you are, and what kind of impact you're having. That's why I proposed not a rigid standard, but a good question we should ask ourselves. What if other people did what I do? It's simple, but far-reaching.

There is, of course, no free lunch. White gas comes from refineries -- no doubt about it.

I've become much more aware of the impact of ground fires since moving to Texas. When I go camping, it's often in the arid or desert parts of the state. Out there, scavenging wood, even dead wood, would be very destructive to the local environment if done regularly. Big Bend NP, one of my favorite places in the world, would be irrevocably damaged by hikers regularly building ground fires with scavenged wood. There just ain't that much of it, and what's there helps sustain an ancient, but very fragile, ecosystem -- even as it's dessicating into dust.

Where I grew up in the Northwest, this is much less of an issue. There, it's much more about not leaving a mess for others, not starting a forest fire, and not being a slob.

Context matters.

(I do think that chopping down 4" saplings just to take pictures of it to show off your new knife is pretty tacky. I won't apologize for that opinion.)

 

[smersh]

I'll add: wood gas stoves are AWESOME.

I got a commercial one for my gf for Christmas -- it's a larger (~ 1 gallon paint can size) one that is big enough to be a surrogate campfire but still small enough for short backpacking trips. It's phenomenal. I'm going to build a smaller one for the backcountry.

 

[pitdog]

Forest fires have always been a natural occurance anyway so I often come across blackened spots. I think the main issue is making sure your fires are put out correctly !

 

[Vivi]

When building a fire do you follow LNT techniques (I'm not talking in established or approved camping areas)? If not why not?

No. I guess mainly because I don't agree with:

When I'm in the wilderness and I come across a camp fire blackened area; it subtracts from the experience.

If I come across a previously used fire pit, I just see it for what it is, an old camp site. I could care less that it's there any more than me getting frustrated that there's a particular tree in the forest I don't like the looks of. Humans are part of nature too, and IMO observing their effects on it is similar to observing deer trails or beaver damns. It's just one product of their existence.

Obviously this view is relative, as I view cities, cars etc. a bit differently.

If I'm in an area where there is enough foot traffic that if everyone built fires the place would look like ****, I'm never there long enough to need a fire. I avoid such highly populated trails.

When I build a fire I usually just kick it out, spread the ashes and burnt wood, kick a bit of dirt over it and let mother nature do the rest. As long as I don't create a forest fire I'm content, because burnt or not, something is going to decompose that wood.

I wonder if the animals get together and talk about how rude the skies are when lightening strikes and burns a tree, instead of packing in an alcohol stove?

 

[SouthernCross]

I can see both points of view :thumbup::thumbup:

Forest fires have always been a natural occurance anyway so I often come across blackened spots. I think the main issue is making sure your fires are put out correctly !

Since this topic needs some more pics , here's a couple of areas I've come across that mirror Pits experience :thumbup:

This next one occured long enough before the picture was taken for regeneration to have started.

Kind regards
Mick

 

[fujita yuji]

I usually go open fire at river shores, where I can find good washed logs
and adequate size of rocks. Water is always within my reach and the remnant
will be washed away sooner or later.

I'm enjoying charcoal pot these days. It has no flame, just a charcoal fire
but having portable open fire indoor is quite nice.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I don't practice LNT, because I think it's a poor management technique devise by green weenie that live in cities and have no clue about how nature works.

Now that I pissed 80+% of the board off. . .

I adhere to the forerunner of LNT, which is the old Boy Scout motto of "Leave the campsite better than you found it." Which means I don't leave trsh behind, leave the place a mess, etc. If it's prepared campsite (rare for me to stay at one, unless it's one I prepared), that means cleaning the place up, leaving a stack of firewood near the fire pit, etc. I also burn a good amount of leaf litter and deadfall. I'll also cut down ailing trees.

Why? Number of reasons.

1.) Humans are part of nature. I don't fall into the "humans are evil outsiders" line of thinking.
2.) What people who cry "Let the natural process take care of it!" don't understand is that the "natural process" for cleaning that stuff up is called "forest fire." So weep over all the LIVE trees and plants that that evil bitch "mother nature" kills, and not the dead crap some of us burn.
3.) Sowing the ask and charcoal back into the ground makes things grow like crazy. Just look at the strength and vitality of new growth after a forest fire.
4.) By killing off ailing trees, you remove a plant that is using nutrients that the surrounding trees need, and weakens them as well. It's better all around to get rid of them.

 

[beef]

I wonder if the animals get together and talk about how rude the skies are when lightening strikes and burns a tree, instead of packing in an alcohol stove?

I wonder if animals get together, spread beer cans, tin foil and toilet paper round, crap where they sleep and leave every area they visit worse than they found it? Yup. Man is part of nature alright....

I love seeing other people's garbage, scorch marks, bits of blue foam breadcrumbing down the trail. That's what I go out to see. Not beautiful views and untouched bush.

 

[Bushman5]

It really depends on the area. Personally, I think people take the leave no trace concepts to the extreme. The public is broadly taught to walk on, and only on the trails. They see somebody chopping a bit of clearly dead standing wood and they immediately think you are killing a tree. They assume that anything being done out there, outside of walking a groomed path is suspect and harmful.

I don't think going off trail on foot is all that bad. I try not crush new shoots and vegetative growth, but I also don't get all paranoid about it either. I often follow game trails, where those game are as heavy and leave even deeper imprints than I do.

I don't mind having a small fire in the outdoors. I make sure the fire is contained and as smokeless as possible. A small fire need not be busting large logs etc. If I'm going to do that then I'll do it in a designed fire ring. I use established fire rings in preference. However, base camping sometimes necessitates a small personal fire outside of what somebody thought was a good camp site. A small burn mark on the ground? Maybe it detracts from some peoples aesthetics, but it doesn't detract from nature. Nature gobbles up those nutrients released. The area around my place is actively maintained through control fires anyway. Try to find my burn marks within the 1 km scorched areas that have been purposely burned for prairie management.

When I see somebodies little burn mark I usually think, cool, somebody was here and then I scout the area for signs of what else they've done. The only time I get pissed is when I finnd beer bottles and garbage on site or unburried feces/toilet paper. I have no tolerance for that.

If the park posts no fires then I do respect that by using stoves and candle lanterns. If its not posted, then I use common sense and make sure that my fire isn't a liability. Really, I can't imagine personal fires having any types of aesthetic effects as described in the OP. But then again I don't go building bomb fires or try to burn large longs very often. They are just little stick fires and stuff. I have considered making one of those gassification stoves. They will still leave a little fire ring on the ground but no more than 6" in diameter, produce a nice smokeless fire good for warming yourself and cooking and primarily burn little dried twigs and pine cones and materials like that.

very well said.

 

[remmmm]

I have a question about fires and 'Leave No Trace' backpacking.

When building a fire do you follow LNT techniques (I'm not talking in established or approved camping areas)? If not why not?

When I'm in the wilderness and I come across a camp fire blackened area; it subtracts from the experience.

I use a canister stove for cooking.

http://www.outdoor.com/skills/backpacking-skills/leave-no-trace/
If need you a fire, keep it small and away from rock outcrops. Instead of building a fire ring that blackens the rocks and creates a negative aesthetic impact, dig a small pit for your fire. After use, the ashes can be mixed with dirt to neutralize the site. Make sure the fire is dead out.

IMO, this is out of context on this forum. This isn't backpackinglight, it's Wilderness and Survival Skills. Fire is an essential part of this that people enjoy practicing. That being said, I do hate it when people appear to have stopped and built a fire practically in the middle of a marked trail. I always go off trail and try to built a fire where it won't be an eye sore and I do keep the size reasonable and cover the area after.

Edit: People that weep over the death of a few little saplings in heavily forested areas kill me. Most public land has been overly logged, this results in 10 billion small to medium trees and another 10 zillion saplings trying to come up. As others have said, clearing some of those saplings will help the larger trees become more dominant and accelerate the area back to a natural "old growth" state. I have access to some forest on private land that was never logged, at least not commercially, and it's a pleasure to spend time in and a completely different experience then nearby state land that probably doesn't have a tree older then 60yrs on it. This applies to my local area (KY), and areas like it, ymmv...

 

[Vivi]

@beef: That's a lot different than a 1 foot diameter dark spot in the ground

 

[Bushman5]

I do what i want and when i want in the bush. I chop down alder/willow and cedar trees every weekend, just for fun and to test out new knives or demonstrate proper felling techniques with ax or chainsaw. I light campfires in the woods. I chop down trees for shelter materials about 3 - 4 times a month, and in different areas. I harvest and burn on average about 5 - 10 lbs of fatwood a month, not out of need but for pleasure.

I will keep on doing this, and I refuse to apologize for doing so.

why?

I live in an area where those trees i cut grow like weeds. I can chop 100 trees this year and there will be 500 shooting up the same size next year in the same spot. A campfire, even a large one, here disappears in several months, due to torrential rains and rapid growing undergrowth.

I build my fires small and burn them down to cold white ash. I scatter this and there is no evidence i was ever there.

YMMV, your region might be different.

 

[Snow]

I wonder if animals get together, spread beer cans, tin foil and toilet paper round, crap where they sleep and leave every area they visit worse than they found it? Yup. Man is part of nature alright....

I love seeing other people's garbage, scorch marks, bits of blue foam breadcrumbing down the trail. That's what I go out to see. Not beautiful views and untouched bush.

We had a nice little flamefest going with lots of sarcastic remarks and name calling, and there you go having to make a logical, thoughtful post that really added to the discussion.

 

[smersh]

IMO, this is out of context on this forum. This isn't backpackinglight, it's Wilderness and Survival Skills. Fire is an essential part of this that people enjoy practicing. That being said, I do hate it when people appear to have stopped and built a fire practically in the middle of a marked trail. I always go off trail and try to built a fire where it won't be an eye sore and I do keep the size reasonable and cover the area after.

Right -- because not being a pig in the woods is for dirty hippies.