Leave No Trace - Fires?

[Darteres]

I frequently light fires off trail, scatter the ashes and then sift leaf litter over my bedding and fire area. I doubt that a normal person could tell I camped out if I took them to the place where I was on Friday night. I bet a few of the posters on this forum could tell. In a month, I wouldn't be able to tell. We just get too much rain around here and our growing season is most of the year.

One habit that I learned in the scouts and still use is what I call having a trail bag. I get a small trash bag and tie it to my pack and pick up the trash that others have left behind. I don't enjoy picking up peoples crap. I enjoy seeing it on the return trip even less.

 

[remmmm]

Right -- because not being a pig in the woods is for dirty hippies.

No, I hate, HATE seeing trash of any kind in the woods left by people and have packed out plenty of extra trash in addition to always packing out what I take it. But building a camp fire should not be discussed in the same context as trashing up the forest, it's two completely different things, that's the point I'm trying to make...

 

[shunsui]

I adhere to the forerunner of LNT, which is the old Boy Scout motto of "Leave the campsite better than you found it."

+1 :thumbup:

 

[Skimo]

Cpl Punishment and I see pretty much eye to eye on this.

Fire isn't bad, as a matter of fact, if I see a mass of dead dry wood, I'll do my best to chop it up and burn as much of it as possible. There's a reason, forest fires, those masses of dead growth light up very easily, like a giant 'birds nest' and accelerate a fires growth, nature's way of starting an easy fire.

Controlled burns are needed in many areas. I don't like camping in forested areas, I look for previous fire pits because they save time, rock outcroppings are great for fire containment and potentially as heat reflectors, burn marks are part of nature, trash isn't. Two completely separate things to talk about.

I'm no hippy, I pack out what I pack in, sometimes I pack out a lot more than I pack in, I see less 'redneck beer bottles' and more 'yuppy water bottles' these days.

 

[smersh]

No, I hate, HATE seeing trash of any kind in the woods left by people and have packed out plenty of extra trash in addition to always packing out what I take it. But building a camp fire should not be discussed in the same context as trashing up the forest, it's two completely different things, that's the point I'm trying to make...

My point is that ethics matter, and they don't vary just because of what forum you happen to read. The LNT movement comes from an effort to preserve the wilderness experience so that the next person down the trail can have the same sense of wonder you had. If we don't do that, it WILL change.

A lot of the impulse behind this forum is turning back to older practices, remembering/rediscovering how previous generations made do with the resources to be found in nature. Some of that resourcefulness, though, is accompanied by a sense that nature can both provide everything we need, and absorb our waste. When you go hiking in the Tillamook burn in the Oregon coast range, you find the same unbelievable explosion of growth that led the loggers there in the early 20th century, albeit without the huge trees. You know what else you find? Even 60-100 years later, you find rusty tin cans and cast off equipment that they buried or just dumped in a ravine, because they didn't have any sense of the lingering effect of their presence there (and most of them probably just saw it as an industrial extraction job, anyway).

On the one hand, a campfire and the rusty cans seem two unrelated things -- but what links them (at least some of the time) is a disregard for who/what comes along next. The point is that all of us have a responsibility to think through the impact of our actions. Building a campfire most certainly CAN be trashing the forest. It depends on the forest, how many people go there, and what they do.

You don't get a special pass because you're practicing your mountain man skills.

If we didn't think about preservation, there would be precious little "wilderness" to celebrate in forums like this. Yellowstone would be a cattle ranch, Acadia would be a private summer resort, and the Olympic Peninsula would be a clearcut.

 

[hollowdweller]

Most of the places I go have already used fire rings.

The times I have camped at places that nobody has camped before I've always had just a tiny fire and then the next day poured water on it and brushed the leaves I pulled back back over.

 

[smersh]

I see less 'redneck beer bottles' and more 'yuppy water bottles' these days.

No need to make it a class conflict. Beer and water bottles are pretty much equal opportunity "redneck" and "yuppy" accessories.

 

[tonym]

Is every one PMSing today, or is "lets take his post out context monday"???

I don't feel anyone on this forum is the type to leave their trash around. So if they don't see the point in practicing leaving no trace, that doesn't mean they go about trashing the wilderness.. I have made dozens of fires off trail on rock outcroppings every year. By the next year you can't even tell. Taking a few sapplings doesn't bother me, just don't leave little spikes in the ground for people to fall on. I hike alot of different trails each week, some don't get any traffic, and others get dozens of people a day. On the more frequented trails I see more damage by beavers and woodpeckers than any humans do....

 

[hollowdweller]

Speaking of garbage, I have found that the easier it is to get there the more likely you are to leave garbage. ATV riders leave the most around here especially cigarette butts. Then bikes, then horses.

 

[mdauben]

It really depends on the area. Personally, I think people take the leave no trace concepts to the extreme. The public is broadly taught to walk on, and only on the trails. They see somebody chopping a bit of clearly dead standing wood and they immediately think you are killing a tree. They assume that anything being done out there, outside of walking a groomed path is suspect and harmful.

Unfortunatly, I think a lot of people look at it this way and taken in isolation, they are correct. One person walking off-trail does not really do much damage and what is done will probably quickly disappear. Likewise one person gathering wood for a fire does not impact the forest much at all and one fire ring will quickly be reclaimed by the forest. However, we have to remember that we are not alone in the wilderness. Where such actions by one person might have no effect, the same actions by hundreds or maybe thousands of hikers leads to forests stripped of deadwood, areas criss-crossed by redundant trails, slopes erroded by heavy foot traffic. etc. etc.

A classic Leave-No-Trace advocate goes into the woods with a Whisperlite stove and burns fuel extracted in a foreign country, loaded on a supertanker, taken to a refinery, packaged and shipped to a camping goods store, and finally burned in a stove.

This is true as far as it goes, but again you need to look at cumulative impact. A thousand hikers using a few pints of fuel each are not even a blip in the petrochemical supply chain and have little to no influence on the overall impact of the petrochemical industry on the world wide environment. On the other hand, a thousand hikers using woodfires to cook can have a significant impact on the environment of our limited wilderness areas.

Just some ideas to think about. Certainly, there remain areas where human traffic is low enough, and the environment resilient enough, to permit "traditional" bushcraft, but such areas are becoming more limited every generation. Areas with high human traffic (most State and National parks, for example) or with delicate ecosystems (high elevations, deserts and far northern areas with limited growing seasons) need to be approached in as "no-trace" a way as possible.

 

[smersh]

I have made dozens of fires off trail on rock outcroppings every year. By the next year you can't even tell.

That's a pretty low standard, if it's a place where other people go. My main criterion: what if other people -- often, LOTS of other people -- do what I do?

I have never packed out toilet paper, though. Burn and bury as needed.

;-)

 

[tonym]

That's a pretty low standard, if it's a place where other people go. My main criterion: what if other people -- often, LOTS of other people -- do what I do?

Oh well, I guess I am just a deadbeat woodsbum n your eyes. I can live with that

But come on, this fire sure does look warm doesn't it??

 

[beef]

We had a nice little flamefest going with lots of sarcastic remarks and name calling, and there you go having to make a logical, thoughtful post that really added to the discussion.

There was name calling? In my post?

 

[smersh]

But come on, this fire sure does look warm doesn't it??

It does indeed!

I'm not anti-fire. Really. I just don't get the reflexive anti-preservation attitude by some around here.

 

[Bushman5]

humans are but a infinitesimal speck of NOTHING in this universe. Mother Nature flicks us off her back like a dog shaking off water. 9 billion people could scorch this earth and it would grow back JUST FINE and cover up everything.

I'm not going to preserve squat. My actions in the woods are so insignificant its not even measurable. The earth is mine to harvest and use.

cut it, log it, burn it, extract it, mine it, pave it and race it.

 

[tonym]

It does indeed!

I'm not anti-fire. Really. I just don't get the reflexive anti-preservation attitude by some around here.

Well I am no where near as anti preservation as our friend Bushman 5 here...
But I don't worry about blackening a rock here and there. For the most part I practice using downed trees. Some applications call for me to use green wood, but anything I take is well used. For the most part I can find downed wood for 90% of what I do in the outdoors, so I use that frst.
I am against the attitude that humans have absolutley no effect on the planet, but I am not running around hugging trees either.

No hard feelings Smersh, you bring up a good point:thumbup:

 

[dextersp1]

On the one hand, a campfire and the rusty cans seem two unrelated things -- but what links them (at least some of the time) is a disregard for who/what comes along next. The point is that all of us have a responsibility to think through the impact of our actions. Building a campfire most certainly CAN be trashing the forest. It depends on the forest, how many people go there, and what they do.

You don't get a special pass because you're practicing your mountain man skills.

If we didn't think about preservation, there would be precious little "wilderness" to celebrate in forums like this. Yellowstone would be a cattle ranch, Acadia would be a private summer resort, and the Olympic Peninsula would be a clearcut.

Good post. I didn't know my question would have such reactions. One reason we go into the woods is to get away from the effects of humans - not to be reminded of it. I would have thought that being out in nature would have lead to respect, appreciation and a desire to preserve it.

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Mike

..... Certainly, there remain areas where human traffic is low enough, and the environment resilient enough, to permit "traditional" bushcraft, but such areas are becoming more limited every generation. Areas with high human traffic (most State and National parks, for example) or with delicate ecosystems (high elevations, deserts and far northern areas with limited growing seasons) need to be approached in as "no-trace" a way as possible.

IMO, this is very well expressed :thumbup::thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick

 

[RescueRiley]

We are all cogs in a grand mechanism if one piston starts firing irregularly eventually (maybe not today or tomorrow) it'll throw the whole machine off..
I make fires almost everytime I go out.... I only burn dead timber..I normally use fire pits left behind by others... I don't make fires on rock outcroppings or construct a fire ring a as a gen rule... and when I make my fire in a non premade area... there is no trace that I was there when done. But those are my choices based upon my beliefs..so they only apply to me
(all of these are general guidlines for me there are exceptions in each case)
it is similar to hunting I guess
it is ethical provided it is not wasteful
I love being out in the woods
I find it rejuvinating and humbling on numerous levels
I'd like fr my kids and grandkids to have the same experiences

as long as you are aware of your actions, an potential ramifications do what you feel is right... that is the truest scale for human behavior...
The one thing that grinds my gears though is trash...Cart it out.
and as always it seems like everytime there is a thread where folks seem to have a difference of opinion... everyone starts getting there bristles up..guess what? your opinion is just, and only that... regardless of which side of the fence your on..
I have alot of buds who are specifically LNT UL backpackers....I go out with them,a few times a year for overnights and we learn from eachother.... We may look at things a bit differnt..but we are there for the same reasons
there;s my 2 cents

 

[LMT66]

I'm not anti-fire. Really. I just don't get the reflexive anti-preservation attitude by some around here.

Maybe because what little freedoms we have left in the wild, are being attacked from every angle by multiple groups all with their own agenda's.


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