Les Robertson

[RMLamey]

There is a big difference between whining and trying to articulate your opinion.

Whinning is what you do when you grind your thumbnail off on a 60 grit belt!!

In the big picture i dont agree with Les's removal and simply wanted to state my opinion on the topic. I respect Mike and Sparks decision, i really have no choice, but that doesnt mean i must agree with it.

Spark- I never assumed this decision was made overnight. However, if it wasnt a hasty decision why couldnt it wait until Monday?? The implication that this was a decision of angst is implied by the actions and manner that Les's removal was conducted.

I hope my messages do not convey a feeling of disrespect for anyone. This is not my intention, i respect all of the opinions ive read, i simply dont agree with some of them.

 

[JP]

A threatening letter from an attorney? Faced with the cost of protracted litigation?

Someone had someone send a letter. It's too bad that someone didn't end his long awaited post with - by the way, now I am going to threaten to sue you.




[This message has been edited by JP (edited 10 April 1999).]

 

[Mike Turber]

Let me assure you there was no letter from any attorney sent to anyone here at BladeForums. So please do not add to this as many rumors start this way.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[stan]

The First Amendment doesn't apply here; it only applies in situations where the government interferes with freedoms. Here, the owners of the forum have the right to specify the parameters of the discussions that they will allow, since they're paying for the bandwith. In their defense, they probably would've allowed the comments that Les made if he weren't a moderator, though it still might've fallen under the "No personal attacks" rule.
In Les's defense, it was good for him to air out some of the problems that Emerson has had in delivering and communicating with his customers. Emerson proponents here and in the Emerson forum on that "other forum" have not responded to the allegations with facts, only with personal attacks.

 

[Kent Davis]

Bad Move!! I didn't like the Emerson thing at all, but there are a lot of things that I feel go off in a wayward direction from time to time.
This was bad managment on behave of the forum, and with Les, on vacation it seems spinless. Mr Emerson, did speak up and adressed many of the issues that were waged, I have more respect for him for it... I'll always think that the thread got a little out of hand, and I think Les, could have left some of his comments out, BUT... If I never made a mistake or went over the line... I guess I could cast stones, but this one man has seen a lot of passion from many who visit this forum. I think its the one thing that keeps me coming back. I'm not sure where all this "knife Passion", comes from but I have a little of it myself. I just wanted you to know that YOU MADE A BIG MISTAKE. IMHO

 

[Spark]

No one "flexed any muscle" or had a lawyer call us, so the speculation on that is way off base.

Second, you'll note that none of the posts involving this matter have been deleted to "remove the evidence." You can always go back and look it over yourselves. Compare this to the M.O. of other locales.

Third, when Les comes back you'll note that he will still be able to post. All that was done is that he is no longer a moderator, freeing him from those responsibilities. His banner is still in rotation, his links are still in place, and his posts have not been deleted. The only thing that has changed is that he is no longer a moderator.

Fourth, yeah, we ****ed up, we admit it, we should have waited until Monday to do this, or have done it on the spot last week. Hindsight is 20-20, and anyone can armchair quarterback after the fact. What doesn't change is that all of this happened, and even if he hadn't gone on vacation, his moderator status still would have been removed.

Now, for those of you who think you are going to be removed from the forums for stating your opinions, I would like you to point to one instance where we have done this previously. You can't, because we haven't. Les hasn't been removed either, and his opinions are still welcome here, but like everyone else he must follow the rules that have been in place since day one.

We don't censor here because that isn't our way. If we did, you'd constantly be seeing, "What happened to this thread?" posts.

Finally, keep in mind that this is a simple status change from moderator to member. You all don't think you are less a part of BladeForums.com, or less able to speak your mind, or start topics simply because you are members do you? Same applies here. Les has not be censored or muzzled or kept from posting, so any talk to the contrary is misplaced.

You don't have to agree with our opinions on this, however, our decision was not taken lightly, and rather than dragging these forums down to the level of rec.knives in the interest of letting all of the nasty details come to light, we made our decision without having a public debate. This was not taken lightly, and we didn't like being put in this position in the first place, but we made our decision and what's done is done.

Making more out of this than a simple status change is making problems out of nothing. I can understand where you are coming from, but keep in mind that Les isn't gone, hasn't been banished, and we aren't censoring him. So, don't make a mountain out of a molehill by reading conspiracies and lawsuits into something this straightforward and simple.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Mike Turber]

I do not want to post anymore on the subject until I talk to Les and I would suggest we all do the same. Please do not read anything into this decision that is not there. It is difficult to make a decision like this especially knowing that there will be backlash. Ya I ****ed up by my timing and for that I am sorry but that is really not the issue here. Let's table this until I talk to Les. Heck for all we know he may have wanted to step down as being a moderator in this particular forum has a lot of responsibility.

BladeForums is a great community and there will always be controversy from time to time. It goes with the territory. Get over 1,800 people into one room and you will see what I mean.

I have decided to make a board of members to help us make decisions like this in the future. I would bet that in a board meeting the subject of timing would of come up and we would not have stepped on our collective Johnson

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[SNAPCUT]

Comedian George Carlin once said, and this is not verbatim: "People are OK one or two at a time, any more than that, and they start to wear arm bands." There are issues here that we may not be aware of. We do not need to take sides. We are here because we share a common interest, therefor we are all on the same side. Let us not turn a forum for the positive exchange of information into what we refer to in HQ as a "pissing contest".

 

[alex]

While I certainly agree with the right of a privately owned forum owner to remove any one for any reason, for the record, I agree with those that said this matter was handled EXTREMELY poorly, especially while Les was away.

It will certainly be interesting to look back a year from now and see how many custom knives Mr. Emerson has delivered to those on his waiting list. I hope Les continues to post regularly and honestly as he always has.
I value his advice.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to post.

Alex Penton (openton@bellsouth.net)

 

[Dew]

It has been a gloomy day. I don't want to comment about who is right or wrong, but have to admit every time I enter bladeforums, this forum is often the first place I visit.

Even I 've bought a few knives from Les, I don't agree with him in every topic. I also like Maddog & Chris Reeves, for example. As I observed Les often had strong comments on some makers, sometimes even for those whom he was selling their pieces. Anyway he always stated his comments very well, backing them up by his experience. I always learn something reading each convincing post of his, agreeable or not.

IMO if one wants to make the most money from selling knives, he/she would better choose to just sell them all, endorse them all. Once I was surprised when I tried to buy a Robert Rippy knife (not the one currently shown on his site) from him , and he told me the knife was less than he would expect from a well-known knifemaker. That makes Les unique.
He doesn't just make profit but has good intention to educate people. And I do appreciate that, a lot. He has made me believe this site's main purpose is not only for knife dealers to sell their products.

Thanks for listening to my whining.

I only want to say he would be missed. Les might feel losing face and would unlikely decide to join the discussion often. The result is a loss, to all of us. IMO.

Dew.


[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 10 April 1999).]

 

[JP]

Les has an inherent bias in promoting custom knives, custom knifemakers. Not one particular maker, but the industry in general. Quality, price, and availability of custom knives effect his business, and effect the READERS of this forum. His interest are aligned with ours. Note that Mr. Emerson did not address the issue of those who e-mailed (without reply), sent letters (without reply), and called and told by staff - another three years. And continues to take deposits for custom knives. WHAT WE ARE WAITING FOR IS THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION --- ERNIE - IF WE PAY YOU A DEPOSIT, WHEN WILL WE SEE THE KNIFE?????? WHAT IS THE ANSWER???
Still no response. Search rec.knives, search the forums, search the whatever, his knives are rarely sold aftermarket, and NO POSTS on anyone receiving one --- yet as Ernie posts, he is still taking deposits on new customs. I started the thread to find out, without opinions, without disparaging comments, but the thread failed. No posts out of thousands of readers who indicated they received their order from Ernie. Now we have at least two "shills" posting.

If you think you sense frustration in Les' posts, what about those who have ordered!! If it was a "no name" maker, I doubt you would have taken the action you did.

Please rename your forum Knifeforums2, as it appears the "shoe fits."

 

[Spark]

JP, it seems that you are unwilling, or unable to accept that this is not a case of us being unfair or taking Emerson's side, or us being sued, or any other incorrect assumption.

Les abused his position as a moderator. This has not been an isolated incident. I feel that a comparison to the other forums site is unwarranted and completely, 180 degrees off. Our track record bears this out 100%.

JP, you do not have all the facts here, and you do not accept that the person who answered your question saying "Yes, I did recieve a knife" is telling the truth. Emerson himself came on and said that he has 50 CQC6's getting ready to be delivered, and you still aren't satisfied. What else is it going to take? Are you going to call everyone who receives one of those knives a shill as well?

Finally, you use a hotmail address. Does that mean you are a troll? No, it doesn't. Does that make you any less credible? By some people's logic, yes. Personally, I judge people on what they do, not where their email address is.

I respect your opinion, but your opinion is not well informed. Please take a step or two back from this issue, and realize that we have the best interests of the members and this site in as our priorities.

Please also realize that we do not make any money off Emerson, or Chris Reeve, or many other makers out there. Mike isn't an Emerson distributor, or a Reeve distributor. We aren't doing this because of a paycheck, were doing it because it's right and if you could not respect the rules here, the same would happen to you, or anyone else.

Be nice. No attacks, no slander, no defamation. We expect this from all of our members, especially our moderators.

No more, no less.

Spark.

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 10 April 1999).]

 

[Cobalt]

Since I have no loyalty to either party involved in this, I will state my opinions from an outsiders point of view who has nothing to gain from either party(Les or Emerson). So here are my points:

1. Mike and Spark did the right thing in removing less as moderator. He stated his opinions and dislikes for the man several times in several different postings. Mike or Spark, told him at one point to tell people to refer to his earlier post. He did not comply, and continued his attacks, which have become more personal than just general interest. Well done guys. Les, there are other makers with reputations for doing the unethical or making products that really do not work, yet you singled him out and continued your attack. Lesson learned, I hope.

2. Emersons waiting period is unreasonable at 3 or more years, but as free thinking, intelligent, human beings, we have the right to not purchase any product we do not like. I had called in an order for 2 fixed blades from Ernie. I think I spoke with wife(nice Lady). She told me it would be at LEAST 3 years and a $25 deposit. I said I would think over it and send in my request for the knives along with a check once I made a decision. I decided not to order since this time frame is unreasonable to me especially with a deposit. My intelligent choice.

3. There are plenty of other knife makers out there making excellent tactical knives; Carson, Lightfoot, Elishewitz, Reeves and many more. Go to them if you have to, their product is second to none.

Again, good work Spark and Mike. Contrary to the other forum, you guys only lock threads or get involved when a situation get's out of hand as this one did. Kudo's

 

[Walker]

Mike and Spark had a tough call to make, one that could and would be criticized whichever path they chose. They made the call. They have since admitted that the handling could have been improved. They're working now to ensure the handling will be improved in the future. Since we can't fix anything in the past, it sounds to me as if they're doing everything they can do to preclude recurrence. When we stop learning, we'll be sure we're dead.

 

[Mike Turber]

Thanks guys,

I know I screwed up and my timing was far less than perfect. I sometimes suffer from cranial rectal inversion and my dentist and podiatrist sometimes must work together. I have learned from this too. I also understand the thought process that Earl must of went through when he decided to remove me.

The difference here is I will not delete anything, I did not make up a story on why Les is being removed (rotation of moderators), and I will be proactive and make a board to handle these situations in the future.

I am very much like Les in that I speak my mind on occasion myself and removing him may in someone's mind seem like the pot calling the kettle black (never really got that statement, my pot is silver and my kettle is blue

).

I would like to personally apologize to Les for how I handled this. After I read the first post telling me the timing sucked I realized that it really did and I could of waited a couple extra days. Although the decision would not change I should of waited and for that I am sorry.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[Dew]

At first, it seemed reasonable to say that, with his position as moderator, it's somehow inappropriate for Les to make such a strong comment. But as Spark has said clearly above,
it looks like that's not the case. It read like if Les or anyone 's saying this as a member, he would also subject to censorship.
I don't like the sound of that.

Indeed, I don't see this Emerson incident as a personal attack at all. However famous, Emerson is not untouchable. Without the strong criticisms I doubt that he would come forward and explain publicly, and we might never know what happens to the 1000+ emails/day that have been largely ignored.

I would say, Mike and Spark, that you have the right to remove Les only because you're the owner of this site, and I respect that. But please, don't state that "because it's right. It is your rule. You didn't ask members for a vote for this decision. From what I read above, not all of us agree with your decision.

Frankly speaking, the Emerson thread was much more informative than the "Josh" stuff I patiently observed last year in rec.knives.
I didn't say a word then. I always respect that everyone has the right to say what he/she believes.


I will stop here. Nothing to say much, other than that I'm truly disappointed. Don't bother to lock this thread or cancel my message. All I ask you to do is remove my user account from your database, since this will be my last post for Bladeforums. I have given some time with it but it simply doesn't work for me.

For members who are also in rec.knives I will read you there. Thanks and take care.

Bye,
Dew.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

JP, I don't agree with the Knifeforums2 statement. This mess was handled much worse than anything that went on at KnifeForums. Waiting until he was gone was very bad.

What I find most ironic is Spark critizing Les for abusing his power as a moderator and yet that is exactly what Spark was heavily critized for on Knifeforums.com as he actually entered into debates and then locked threads when they didn't go his way. That is abuse of power - you do not moderate a thread you are involved in.

Spark you comment about how Les responded to your interference in his forum:

I made it a point, in several threads, to make it clear that personal attacks are not allowed here. At one point *I* was even told that I didn't know what I was talking about, and how dare I question his actions, he didn't need a babysitter.

If you think how Les replied was severe you would not like it if you tried that on any board I was a member of let alone if I was chairing it. Any public discussion of a matter of dispute which should be kept private would have immediately got you called on a point of order and you would have been warned never to pull a stunt like that again. If you did you would have been removed from the board for a gross violation of procedure.

Administrators -do not- debate each others methods and actions in public. It is absolutely necessary to present a unified front and you have to *publically* support each other no matter what.

To resolve any matters of dispute you and or Mike should have contacted Les in private. You then had two choices. Either you all agreed and you let him make the statement, or you can't reach an agreement and he is removed as moderator. In neither case do you open up a public debate on the subject.

The only way you can do these things in public is if you are willing to make every fact public. If you are not then you can't have public debate at all so you simply state the decisions and invite comments but you don't debate them.

What you might what to do is actually get someone who has professional experience as a moderator and sit down with you and discuss the rules of procedure and get all this ironed out. Knifeforums lost a lot of people because of some very bad moderation and even worse decisions by the administration . Look at the number of threads in the two general forums. If you keep making decisions like this one you will be in the same position in a few months.

One final comment, while the fact that Les made some posts that might have been against the no attacking rule (which I don't think he did) - that has nothing to do with his actions as a moderator. That is him being a regular poster and there is a huge difference. I have never felt that Les would have used his position as a moderator to stifle debate on a subject because of his opinions. That is an abuse of moderating power. Attacking someone is simply an abuse of posting rights.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Just to clarify - when I said that you don't moderate a discussion that you are involved in, this does not mean that if you are a moderator you are not allow to speak. It simply means that when you do enter into debate you drop a line to another moderator and ask him to moniter the threads and you leave the decisions up to him.

On real boards this is simply done by the moderator announcing that they want to enter into debate so they turn the chair over to another member who moderates the discussion until the chairperson has finished his argument.

-Cliff

 

[Spark]

Dew, if that is what you truly think, then I am sorry, especially after I've gone through such lengths to try to explain this.

We have no problem with people stating their opinions. We have no problem with people telling the truth.

We have a big problem with people using their position to attack makers due to personal differences. That is not right.

Again, I will reiterate this: This is not a one time event. This has been building for several months now. I have been actively researching this since before SHOT show, and I haven't liked what I've seen.

On top of this, Les was given warnings to take a step back and not continue with the personal attacks. He ignored them, and that is noone's fault but his own. From the Emerson thread, I quote

Les, you've done your part by providing this information to the customers out there, and you've stated your opinions on this matter. I would recommend you bookmarking the thread that you've explained the customers options in, and referring to that in the future, should this situation come up again, which I am sure that it will.

cont....
As such, we have to tell the good with the bad. However, I will not tolerate the use of
these forums as a tool for a personal vendetta against any one person or company, we should be above that. BladeForums.com is bigger than any one person's opinions, and our staff is expected to remain impartial in their positions as moderators. Les, you have done an excellent job informing the forum members of what their options are, and you have stated your opinions on this matter unequivocally. Until such time as we have heard back from Emerson Knives and given them their chance to state their side of the story, I would ask that you take a step back from *this* issue, and strictly relay the information that you have already provided. Clearly you have a stake in this, and as such I would prefer if you would give the other side a chance now.

What followed was a clear example of just why Les had lost his perspective as a moderator.

He shared his information, and when told to back off, could not. You'll note we didn't muzzle him for his information.

You can claim censorship all you want, but you know that that isn't the case. None of the threads have been deleted, no one has been banned from this site. Our one rule of "no personal attacks" was broken, repeatedly, and as a result, he lost his moderator position. The information is still there, so it hasn't been censored.

The same rule that applies to members applies to moderators. If you can't speak your mind without personally attacking someone, then wait until you can. When that's broken, what do we do?

One of the reasons BladeForums.com is running so well is because of the no personal attacks rule. We don't allow flaming from anyone, not just select moderators or site admins. This isn't rec.knives. Think hard and you'll realize that.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Spark]

Cliff, following up on your comments, you said

If you think how Les replied was severe you would not like it if you tried that on any board I was a member of let alone if I was chairing it. Any public discussion of a matter of dispute which should be kept private would have immediately got you called on a point of order and you would have been warned never to pull a stunt like that again. If you did you would have been removed from the board for a gross violation of procedure.

Well, Les did make that comment publically. From the Emerson thread:

As far as you not paying as much attention to this forum as you should be. I dont need a baby sitter. Kevin we all acknowledge your expertise in computers. Its time for you to acknowledge that I posses the same expertise in custom knives.

You'll note that the fact that this issue got to this point 1. Shows that he wasn't acting with proper control as a moderator, and 2. he had completely lost his perspective as a moderator of this site.

Who violated procedure, Cliff? Les was asked to step back from the issue and calm down. He couldn't. He was removed. It's as simple as that. Les entered into the debate, could not keep his temper, or follow our rules, and as such was in violation of our procedures. When I, as an outside moderator stepped in, he continued on.

Any way you slice it, there are only two things to complain about here:
1. Our timing. We should have removed Les as Moderator immediately, or when he got back, but either way, it was happening. We screwed up, we were wrong, end of story. To keep rehashing this issue is beating a dead horse.

2. Les's removal from being a moderator. He couldn't maintain his composure, he was abusing his power, and this wasn't a one time occurrance. When asked to back down, he wouldn't. When there was an opportunity to twist the discussion, he used it. That's something we couldn't allow to go on if we expected BladeForums.com to grow.

There are a lot more private, nasty details than what we are sharing with you guys, but they are private, not public. As such, when I say you are not operating with full information, you yourself should recognize this.

You don't like Les's removal? Point noted. You think it could be handled better? I agree. You want to make a difference? Volunteer for the advisory board.

Everything else is armchair quarterbacking.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 11 April 1999).]