Less Is More: The Official Becker Fitness Thread

[Trout Tamer]

I also think the Becker points per rep needs to be dropped. That's like saying that one rep of bench at a light weight is worth the same as a mile of running. I don't see it. I would call it 1 BP per 10 reps, maybe even per 30. I'd like to have it be fairly difficult to rack up 5 BP in a workout. There could be difficulty multipliers for harder exercises, for sure. But I'd be looking at something like a thousand Becker points after my workout today based on the current proposals, and that's just silly.

I agree. I like the idea of a lower point count for a workout. The Move Your Butt challenge was simple while accounting for the relative difficulty of different exercises. I'd like to see us accomplish the same with the resistance exercise challenge.

In MYB, some people posted hundredths of a mile points, whereas others rounded. I rounded to quarter-point increments. Perhaps for the resistance exercise challenge, we can assign a point per a block of reps, like people have posted.

For example, an exercise with a weight in the 20+ reps range, such as a bench press warm-up or a push-up set, would get 1 BP, whereas a rep in a person's max-rep weight range, say 1 to 2 reps, would be worth three points. This would account for both varying strength levels of individuals and also present a fixed standard for everyone to aspire to.

There it is; sorry for the stream-of-conscious style of writing. How about we have a fixed number of points for blocks of bodyweight exercises and another fixed number of points for blocks of rep-ranges with weights. Doing this will give an absolute standard with bodyweight exercises and also a standard that factors in relative strength. What say ye?

 

[Qeth]

^^^ This! There are people in the Move Your Butt challenge who'll get double or more of the target points, while there are others who are fighting to hit the goal. I agree with Qeth; the purpose of the resistance exercise challenge is to push one's own limits and increase each individual's strength and conditioning levels.

Micthebear's idea was a great one too, as poundage is poundage, and we may be misdiagnosing our rep range intensity. Then again, scoring points based on total weight moved puts things in the thousands of lbs during the course of the workout, and we'd have to try to come up with a normalizing number to bring it down to point equivalents.

BTW, CF I meant to keep the move your butt challenge and the strength challenge running at the same time, but as different challenges and with different scoring systems.

 

[Qeth]

For example, an exercise with a weight in the 20+ reps range, such as a bench press warm-up or a push-up set, would get 1 BP, whereas a rep in a person's max-rep weight range, say 1 to 2 reps, would be worth three points. This would account for both varying strength levels of individuals and also present a fixed standard for everyone to aspire to.

So if one does 10 reps on bench with a weight I can do 20+ reps, one would get 10 points? Or is it 20 reps = 1 set = 1 BP?

EDIT: If I get what you're saying:

Something like:

Light sets = 20 reps per block = x points
medium set = 10 reps per block = 2x points
heavy set = 5 reps per block = 3x points

So if Bob does 3 reps heavy, he is 3/5 of the way to fill the block. His next set is 3 sets heavy again, for a total of 6; he is 1 heavy block (3x points) and 1/5 into the next block?

 

[Col Defender]

This ^^^^

Dare I ask what a "MOFO" is?

BTW all this sounds great - I'm at a crossroads in my fitness efforts - I just retired as a triathlete after 25 years of doing that so I'm up for any challenge that seems approachable considering who I am and all that. Thanks for working this out. I'll be IN and do the best I can!

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

You probably don't want to know. It's not forum appropriate, anyways. Suffice it to say in this context, it means something similar to bad@$$.

I know what you meant to do, Qeth, but I still don't like the idea. It just seems to cheapen the notion if I'm racking up hundreds or thousands of "points" every workout. I also would rather say:

1 BSP for 20 reps light, 10 reps medium, or 3 reps max. If you don't hit the 20, 10, or 3, it either doesn't count, or you gotta add on an additional 5 for every light weight rep you skipped, 3 for medium, and 1 for heavy. Each of those sets should expend comparable amounts of energy, and maxing isn't a particularly good idea in the best of times anyways. I wouldn't want to encourage people to be maxing every workout, if at all, personally, and putting more points on a max lift is pretty much guaranteed to result in injury, IMO.

What a set means to me is that I hit the last rep, and it's at least questionable whether I can do another consecutive one (or two, if I'm lifting without a spotter). One of the main goals of working out for me is to know my limits. I think that's an important element of the spirit of this challenge.

Keeping it to counting by reps, and NOT managing it by weight, means each person is working at their own levels. Anything else and some people won't get challenged at all, and others will be overly challenged.

 

[Trout Tamer]

...Or is it 20 reps = 1 set = 1 BP?

Something like:

Light sets = 20 reps per block = x points
medium set = 10 reps per block = 2x points
heavy set = 5 reps per block = 3x points

Yep, something along these lines. I was initially thinking we'd have two point systems, one for bodyweight exercises and another for weight lifting - free weights, cables, and machines. The bodyweight system would be based on total numbers per week, while the weights would be based on points for blocks of lifting in different intensity ranges.

For instance, say the goal for the bodyweight exercises is a weekly goal, with totals of:

100 push-ups
40 dips
30 pull-ups
100 squats
50 lunges per leg
300 crunches/leg raises

Some people would blow away the push-ups in a single set, while others would have to grit through each and every rep. The push-ups, squats, and crunches would receive the least points, perhaps 1 point for every 10 or 20 reps. The more difficult exercises would require fewer reps to earn 1 point.

The bodyweight exercise numbers have an absolute standard - 20 push-ups equals one Becker Point - similar to military requirements or police academies. A 250-pound person has to do the same number of push-ups as a 125-pound person. The larger person has to move more mass, but that person's mass entails more muscle, so things more-or-less even out in the wash. People who are less capable with bodyweight exercises have a goal number of points to hit each week and derive motivation to increase performance to get more points, similar to Move Your Butt.

The weight exercises would have proportional point, based on the relative difficulty of an exercise block. The details of how to sort this are still fuzzy to me, but I like the light set/15-20 rep range; medium intensity, 10-15 reps; difficult intensity 5-9 reps; near-max effort 1-4 reps as ranges.

For instance:
Bob can max bench 300 pounds for one rep. He warms up with the bar, doing 20 reps, earning 1 point. He jumps to 135, does 10 reps, and earns ______. I'm stuck. If he wanted to, Bob could pump out 20-plus reps with 135, but that would drain away energy he needs for heavier sets. If Bob only does 10 reps, he shouldn't get two points for lifting in the medium intensity zone, but get one point if he pushes out 15 reps. There's a contradiction in this system, but I don't know how to work it. We could do max reps and calculate intensity ranges for ourselves, but that's getting a little too labor-intensive for this challenge. I think the more intricacy we add, the more folks will be turned off

For the weightlifting points, we could assign a point for X number of pounds or thousands of pounds lifted, say 1 point for every 1,000 pounds lifted.

For instance:
Bob squats 45 pounds 15 times, 115 x 10, 135 x 8, 175 x 8, 205 x 6, and 225 x 6. The total pounds lifted is 675 + 1150 + 1080 + 1400 + 1230 + 1350 = 6885.

Bob would receive 6.885 points for his squats, or he could round to 6.8 for simplicity's sake.

There are a couple problems with this system, as well.
- First, stronger people are greatly advantaged. Not everyone can lift hundreds of pounds at various lifts.
- Second, the compound movement, multi-joint exercises are much more 'valuable' as points-earners than are single-joint exercises, like biceps curls. The upside to this is there are more strength and metabolic benefits to doing multi-joint exercises than with single-joint exercises. However, I remain convinced there's a definite place for single-joint exercises. My elbows hurt if I only do rows and pull-ups and always skip curls. My 'ceps need direct, focused stimulation to stay as strong as needed for pulling heavier weights.
- Third, calculating the points earned from using machines and cables will get dicey. For instance, I did four sets of leg curls tonight at the gym, going up to what the weight stack read as 255 pounds for eight reps. There's no WAY those "255 pounds" of leg curls should get as many points as 255-pound squats!

There are my current thoughts; I'm liking the direction in which bodyweight exercises is going, but I feel we need some brainstorming for the weight lifting part. Finally, I like the idea of giving people a percentage increase, based on their decades of age. I'd not start the increase 'til people are at least 50, but that's my thinking. I'm 35 and don't feel I need an age handicap yet

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Okay, so in the above example, Bob isn't working at his limits. Bob can certainly do more than 20 reps with just the bar. That's not his light weight. I'm willing to concede that a warmup should get a point. And again, I really don't like the idea of getting more points for fewer reps at heavier weights. You're not expending more energy. More energy PER rep, sure. But you're not expending more because you're doing fewer reps. In fact, you're using LESS energy for a max. Consider. Let's just say we're lifting 50 pounds light, 100 pounds medium, 130 max. Totally random numbers. The light and medium weights are comparable, because we're talking a consistent amount of force required to lift them each for the requisite numbers of reps. The weight doubles, and the reps halve, and we're still consistent. Remember, we're essentially dealing with F=mg here. However, I don't know about you, but I can't do double my 3.33333 times my 10 rep weight for a 3 rep max, which is mathematically what we'd need to do to expend comparable amounts of energy. So there's no way in heck it should be worth more, leaving aside the issues with doing max lifts anyways.

There should be NO bonuses for amount of weight lifted. This is about challenging ourselves. If each person works an appropriate level--honor system would apply for that (and I strongly recommend you work out with a partner at least once to help you figure out where you're at with weights)--measuring by blocks of reps accomplishes the goal perfectly well, without as much need to mitigate based on age. Maybe an older 'Head is benching just the bar for 10 reps, while Qeth is pounding them out with 350 lbs. So what. What matters is whether they're each mastering their goals. Best, the reps rule applies to multiple exercises. 15-20, 10, and 3 are good goals across most free weight exercises. If it's an easier exercise, either add weight, or add reps until you're pushing your limits with each set.

 

[Col Defender]

Like I said, once this is figured out and starts, I'm in. You guys are doing a good thing here!

 

[Qeth]

1 BSP for 20 reps light, 10 reps medium, or 3 reps max. If you don't hit the 20, 10, or 3, it either doesn't count, or you gotta add on an additional 5 for every light weight rep you skipped, 3 for medium, and 1 for heavy. Each of those sets should expend comparable amounts of energy, and maxing isn't a particularly good idea in the best of times anyways. I wouldn't want to encourage people to be maxing every workout, if at all, personally, and putting more points on a max lift is pretty much guaranteed to result in injury, IMO.

I like the lowered BP count, it does feel like it took more to earn it. I really like TT's block idea, too. At this point, for the weights portion I think we've gotten the ball rolling enough in the right direction, and all the points brought up are great.

Like I said, once this is figured out and starts, I'm in. You guys are doing a good thing here!

Yeah, I think we are at a point that any way we go would be fine. Maybe we can have Biscuit pick one and moderate it for us so it's a "sanctioned" forum challenge.

 

[Qeth]

What matters is whether they're each mastering their goals.

Quoted for MOFO truth

Best, the reps rule applies to multiple exercises. 15-20, 10, and 3 are good goals across most free weight exercises. If it's an easier exercise, either add weight, or add reps until you're pushing your limits with each set.

I like this rep count for the block idea.

 

[Micthebear]

Just to put it out there because I have seen it said, we could go by time spent lifting and forget all of the details. Maybe something like 1 BP per every 30 minutes and like the MYB challenge we would be depending on honesty, cuz the only one really losing is the person "saying" they did something. There's gonna be room for error any way we do this. Everybody has an advantage at one or another exercise, stronger has advantage over weaker, shorter has advantage over taller, expert has advantage over intermediate has advantage over beginner. Just a thought though...

 

[Col Defender]

Not exactly on topic but does anyone here do Cross Fit or know much about it? I've heard it's pretty good.

 

[Silverthorn]

Its Brutal Col, but it works. I know quite a few people doing it. You just have to be careful that your trainer actually knows what they are doing. With its increase in popularity, there have been a bunch of "Trainers" popping up who really shouldnt be. If you know what I'm sayin.

 

[rokclmb]

One thing I propose for an exercise challenge is to have it start on the first of the month. I mean who starts a month long challenge halfway through the month? What's up with that?

 

[Col Defender]

Its Brutal Col, but it works. I know quite a few people doing it. You just have to be careful that your trainer actually knows what they are doing. With its increase in popularity, there have been a bunch of "Trainers" popping up who really shouldnt be. If you know what I'm sayin.

Thanks Silverthorn Good advice - on Friday I'm going to visit the local Crossfit gym and see what it's like. Trainer approach and qualification is much on my mind. I need a program that recognizes where I am in life!

 

[Qeth]

Not exactly on topic but does anyone here do Cross Fit or know much about it? I've heard it's pretty good.

It's cross training across multiple sports/ types of exercise, with some movements altered to fit their needs.

High risk, high reward. As ST said, a good trainer who recognizes his group's strengths and weaknesses will be able to make sure the WOD is appropriate.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

One thing I propose for an exercise challenge is to have it start on the first of the month. I mean who starts a month long challenge halfway through the month? What's up with that?

If we do that, we can start it on New Years Day. Get a head start on fulfilling some resolutions and such. Maybe have some monthly goals, and a yearly goal.

 

[Qeth]

Can't wait for this next challenge to start, even if it kettlebells get no credit. It'll still be fun!

Speaking of kettlebells, I was a little bummed that I couldn't find a sculpted/ artsy ~20kg bell... so I painted mine.

 

[Guyon]

One thing I propose for an exercise challenge is to have it start on the first of the month. I mean who starts a month long challenge halfway through the month? What's up with that?

The math got you down? Others seem to be managing, but I can send up a signal flare at the end if it'll help.
As I recall, one of the natives was chomping at the bit to get going, so the 15th it was.
The Move Your Butt Challenge will become a monthly challenge, but I decided the other day to give it a rest through the holidays and kick it back off on January 1.
As for this fitness challenge, y'all work out the details and it can certainly run in a separate thread. Qeth has contacted me about it and can manage it if he wants.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Nice, Qeth. What's wrong with scoring kettlebells with reps though?