Lets talk GEC!

I propose running F&F as filler runs between large runs of Tidioute and Northfield patterns.

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knifeswapper knifeswapper So you say that because traditional knives were of the worse quality years ago, nobody have rights to demand a better quality from today's manufacturer? That's total nonsense. Maybe we should use cosmetics with dangerous chemicals because they was like that in the old days?

And where did you find 65$ GEC, may I kindly ask? Currently I don't see any less than around 100$ in USA shops. For people overseas it's even higher.

Also, I've specifically wrote "Don't get me wrong", but seems like you just got it all wrong. Historical part of your post is interesting, but you must admit, that overall it states that old and stupid thing, that manufacturers (or such people, who sell, opposite to us, buyers) sometimes say, and it is this: "I make my product like I want, and if you dont like it, then just piss off". Yeah, you just forgetting the most important thing: manufacturers do produce not for other experienced manufacturers, but for usual customers. So would you please listen to us, who actually buying your stuff.
 
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I can’t comment on the Osage and the Glitter Gold Barlows, but the issues I have with my Sepia are not what I expect of a knife that is priced above $150.

The argument that this is a traditional working mans pattern and the quality should reflect that is a cop out; I’m not buying it.
IF these were sold in the $60 ballpark as the other cover options I’d get that, but the Sepias went for at least double in most cases.

Still, it’s one of Charlie’s SFOs and that’s ultimately what I wanted, and received. I’m happy with my knife despite its flaws, I just don’t buy the idea that I should lower my standards because these knives are made “the old way”.
 
AZCoyote said:
Reading over Mike's comments makes me almost wonder if the factory barlows produced were almost somewhat of a test run. People have often yelled to up the production of GECs to meet demand. The only way to accomplish this is to either expand the factory with more machines and employees or have the factory floor work faster. Naturally with increased speed you sacrifice some quality. Maybe bill was experimenting to see if he tries to up the production rates how many complaints will he get from us knife nuts?

I missed out on the last few runs but I would have been super happy if I was able score one at the price point from one of the reputable dealers that don't heavily mark up their knives, even if it had very minor imperfections. In comparison I've been eyeing some sheiffield lambsfoot knives for a long time but those are priced at 85 to 125, and from seeing photos can come in with centering issues and pretty substantial gaps on the back spring. It's rough for me to fork that out when expecting f&f issues like that but what for what guys like CKs were charging for the barlow I still feel that's a steal.
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I’d happily pay those sub-$100 prices for GECs if that meant making them more readily available, even if that means less than stellar F&F. I enjoy my knives as long as they are mechanically sound and comfortable in the hand, as is my Sepia TC Barlow. I can easily let small cosmetic imperfections slide at those prices.
 
EngrSorenson said:
knifeswapper knifeswapper just for fun- let me pose this question: What if the most recent "budget" TC's had been branded as Farm and Field Work Knives?

I imagine there's a lot of folks who got a 2021 TC knife in the mail that would have been happy with for $65 but they bought it at $150+. I'd gamble that F&F might have readjusted expectations.
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I guess that is partly my point. Each layer must be examined on its own merits. 1) The factory. GEC made a $50+/- (wholesale) knife that probably cost them $40+ to make as it is. 2) The dealer. I purchased a $50+/- knife and sold it for $64 while absorbing 3% finance charge and 4% rewards allocations and profit tax. 3) The flipper. They took a $50+/- (for the flipping dealers) or $64 knife and sold it for $150-400. So, for my part, the knife is a value at $50+/-. For the retail customer, I think there would be an agreement that it was a value at $64. The rest, I can't speak to. I'm not sure I even looked at the backsprings as my typical goal is to get them out asap. But, given no factor other than the quality of the knife, it seems it is not up to the expectations of GEC products - taking nothing else in to consideration.

Tyson A Wright said:
The last 20 pages or so of this thread tends to overlook one fact: one of the artifacts of capitalism is that it is possible for someone to make money for themselves without creating wealth for society, by exploiting the difference between the current price and the real market value of something. This is what these flippers are doing. The current market value for a TC Barlow is clearly many times higher than the retail price. So GEC creates wealth (by making a knife), and the vendors create wealth (by retailing that knife to customers), but they've priced the knife so far below its actual current market value that someone is going to make money off of that difference. I would much rather have GEC or knifeswapper knifeswapper or someone - anyone - involved in creating the value get that money, than have the flippers get rich off of pricing errors. But the flippers will continue to profit until that price/value mismatch is resolved - either by the price going up, or by having the value go down. I don't have any insight into how GEC sets prices, but I suspect that they are operating under the assumption that the current high valuation is a bubble, and they don't want to raise prices and then get hit by the crash. But if the values really stay that high over time, it will be interesting to see what happens.

All of what I just said only makes sense if you understand that 'quality' is not the same as 'value'. I think it's Juran who defined 'quality' as 'fitness for use'. 'Market Value' is the aggregate of what people are willing to pay for something. So a new TC Barlow that's not hitting the quality expectations that everyone has come to have, based on the past TC Barlows, might still have a crazy-high market value, because of limited quantities and high demand.

I do think it's unfortunate that the reports of the last few runs of GEC knives seem to have a higher number of fit and finish defects than we generally expect from GEC, and I suspect that this will have a longer-term impact on their brand than the current collecting bubble. I've noticed on threads about Case quality that the die-hard fans get annoyed when people point out all of their F&F flaws, and so I'm not surprised to see a little bit of that showing up among GEC fans. But everyone has to decide for themselves what their expectations are, and how much deviations from those expectations they're willing to accept. In the end, if GEC keeps making knives with fitment that doesn't live up to their own history and reputation, the discontinuity between price and value may sort itself out, but not in a way that many of us would want.

-Tyson
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A couple of points of interest for me. First, Bill has seen many ebbs/flows in market conditions. And although GEC has increased prices noticeably over time, their mentality is for the longevity of the company. Some attempts to correct issues take time. And as I have mentioned before, his goal is to decrease variants and increase production totals to the point that the market can be very nearly satisfied on each run. This will lower his costs and should eliminate the excessive secondary market prices as the knives will stay on dealer shelves much longer. We didn't really see this problem until the name GEC went mainstream and gained the very large retail dealers attention. Once they started stocking them, many more customers started seeing them, and much more demand was born. There was a time when I have a vault completely full of GEC's. I could call and get more after receiving my initial order. And the factory had a large inventory available in many patterns for months.

As to quality. Although GEC does a generally exceptional job for the market which they occupy; there have been many cases over the last 13 years where lapses have occurred in my opinion. It is not a recent phenomenon. I recently bought a small collection older 2007-2012 GEC knives and was actually surprised at the little things I didn't pay much attention to at the time. And there have been patterns with discussed issues for a decade. Rapping, play on lockbacks, spring too stiff, spring too soft, etc. etc. Many times I think a couple good runs erase our memory of those less stellar.

rdave said:
LOL...
Love it or leave it... If you don't like it, go somewhere else...
Typical retail thinking and mantra these days.
The consumer is always wrong.
The consumer has no rights and are not even allowed to complain.
We have loved GEC for many many years, as long as you have, and should be free to air out observations w/out recrimination.
Click to expand...

You don't quote anything, so I don't really know what this is in response to. But I think if someone trying to discuss alternate points of view comes off as "recrimination" then the exact lack of respect of opinions you opine gets lost in your recrimination. But, to your point, I think pointing out lapses in QC or decisions is advantageous for the market and the factory. But most discussions generally need varied opinions and discussions to keep them genuine. Many times here on the porch I approach it as I do a room full of close friends and don't pay attention to temper the wording.

Alex.Y. said:
knifeswapper knifeswapper So you say that because traditional knives were of the worse quality years ago, nobody have rights to demand a better quality from today's manufacturer? That's total nonsense. Maybe we should use cosmetics with dangerous chemicals because they was like that in the old days?

And where did you find 65$ GEC, may I kindly ask? Currently I don't see any less than around 100$ in USA shops. For people overseas it's even higher.

Also, I've specifically wrote "Don't get me wrong", but seems like you just got it all wrong. Historical part of your post is interesting, but you must admit, that overall it states that old and stupid thing, that manufacturers (or such people, who sell, opposite to us, buyers) sometimes say, and it is this: "I make my product like I want, and if you dont like it, then just piss off". Yeah, you just forgetting the most important thing: manufacturers do produce not for other experienced manufacturers, but for usual customers. So would you please listen to us, who actually buying your stuff.
Click to expand...

Your post is peppered with inaccurate portrayals of my words and a lack of investigating the pricing, etc. Thus, if you have anything specifically that I have said and you want to discuss - please quote it. I don't question your expertise on your 7th post here on BF, but I try very hard to speak to people as a friend - even if I don't agree with them.
 
When you buy something like RR, you know that it's a roulette. You may get a good one, and that's nice, or you may get a bad one, that's disappointing, but somewhat expected. But when you buy GEC that's a different story. You expect no bad ones, and that's fairly justified.
 
You don't quote anything, so I don't really know what this is in response to

Ignorance or convenience? At least you knew where it was directed to even though you said you didn't...

Again:

My personal opinion is that if the GEC product is not for you, given the current market conditions both parties might be better off if you did find the correct product for your expectations of a maker.

LOL...you are so funny.
Love it or leave it... If you don't like it, go somewhere else...
Typical retail thinking and mantra these days.
The consumer is always wrong.
The consumer has no rights and are not even allowed to complain.
We have loved GEC for many many years, as long as you have, and should be free to air out observations w/out recrimination.

LOL

Your gobblydygook is hilarious...
 
R
knifeswapper said:
I guess that is partly my point. Each layer must be examined on its own merits. 1) The factory. GEC made a $50+/- (wholesale) knife that probably cost them $40+ to make as it is. 2) The dealer. I purchased a $50+/- knife and sold it for $64 while absorbing 3% finance charge and 4% rewards allocations and profit tax. 3) The flipper. They took a $50+/- (for the flipping dealers) or $64 knife and sold it for $150-400. So, for my part, the knife is a value at $50+/-. For the retail customer, I think there would be an agreement that it was a value at $64. The rest, I can't speak to. I'm not sure I even looked at the backsprings as my typical goal is to get them out asap. But, given no factor other than the quality of the knife, it seems it is not up to the expectations of GEC products - taking nothing else in to consideration.



A couple of points of interest for me. First, Bill has seen many ebbs/flows in market conditions. And although GEC has increased prices noticeably over time, their mentality is for the longevity of the company. Some attempts to correct issues take time. And as I have mentioned before, his goal is to decrease variants and increase production totals to the point that the market can be very nearly satisfied on each run. This will lower his costs and should eliminate the excessive secondary market prices as the knives will stay on dealer shelves much longer. We didn't really see this problem until the name GEC went mainstream and gained the very large retail dealers attention. Once they started stocking them, many more customers started seeing them, and much more demand was born. There was a time when I have a vault completely full of GEC's. I could call and get more after receiving my initial order. And the factory had a large inventory available in many patterns for months.

As to quality. Although GEC does a generally exceptional job for the market which they occupy; there have been many cases over the last 13 years where lapses have occurred in my opinion. It is not a recent phenomenon. I recently bought a small collection older 2007-2012 GEC knives and was actually surprised at the little things I didn't pay much attention to at the time. And there have been patterns with discussed issues for a decade. Rapping, play on lockbacks, spring too stiff, spring too soft, etc. etc. Many times I think a couple good runs erase our memory of those less stellar.



You don't quote anything, so I don't really know what this is in response to. But I think if someone trying to discuss alternate points of view comes off as "recrimination" then the exact lack of respect of opinions you opine gets lost in your recrimination. But, to your point, I think pointing out lapses in QC or decisions is advantageous for the market and the factory. But most discussions generally need varied opinions and discussions to keep them genuine. Many times here on the porch I approach it as I do a room full of close friends and don't pay attention to temper the wording.



Your post is peppered with inaccurate portrayals of my words and a lack of investigating the pricing, etc. Thus, if you have anything specifically that I have said and you want to discuss - please quote it. I don't question your expertise on your 7th post here on BF, but I try very hard to speak to people as a friend - even if I don't agree with them.
Click to expand...

Really? Such BS - sure, denigrate the new guy - to puff up your cred - as if a new guy is surely an idiot because as a new guy what could he possibly know...
 
knifeswapper said:
I guess that is partly my point. Each layer must be examined on its own merits. 1) The factory. GEC made a $50+/- (wholesale) knife that probably cost them $40+ to make as it is. 2) The dealer. I purchased a $50+/- knife and sold it for $64 while absorbing 3% finance charge and 4% rewards allocations and profit tax. 3) The flipper. They took a $50+/- (for the flipping dealers) or $64 knife and sold it for $150-400. So, for my part, the knife is a value at $50+/-. For the retail customer, I think there would be an agreement that it was a value at $64.
Click to expand...

For a retail customer (assuming you mean a customer who purchased it from an authorized distributor), we have no idea what the value of the knife is because at $64 they sold out in seconds and fippers are getting 3x that. If they were selling at anywhere near market value you’d still have some in stock a few days later. I routinely see GECs going for $250+ on eBay all the time.

Flippers can be a serious threat to any business. I suspect that’s why so many of us feel so uneasy about this current situation.
 
rdave said:
You don't quote anything, so I don't really know what this is in response to

Ignorance or convenience? At least you knew where it was directed to even though you said you didn't...

Again:

My personal opinion is that if the GEC product is not for you, given the current market conditions both parties might be better off if you did find the correct product for your expectations of a maker.

LOL...you are so funny.
Love it or leave it... If you don't like it, go somewhere else...
Typical retail thinking and mantra these days.
The consumer is always wrong.
The consumer has no rights and are not even allowed to complain.
We have loved GEC for many many years, as long as you have, and should be free to air out observations w/out recrimination.

LOL

Your gobblydygook is hilarious...
Click to expand...

rdave said:
R


Really? Such BS - sure, denigrate the new guy - to puff up your cred - as if a new guy is surely an idiot because as a new guy what could he possibly know...
Click to expand...

Seems like you have an axe to grind. I’m having trouble following what your point is, as well, other than trying to insult.
 
skx013k2 said:
For a retail customer (assuming you mean a customer who purchased it from an authorized distributor), we have no idea what the value of the knife is because at $64 they sold out in seconds and fippers are getting 3x that. If they were selling at anywhere near market value you’d still have some in stock a few days later. I routinely see GECs going for $250+ on eBay all the time.

Flippers can be a serious threat to any business. I suspect that’s why so many of us feel so uneasy about this current situation.
Click to expand...

These are hokus pocus numbers... similar to being relegated to playing with an etch-a-sketch and finding they were better used as a frisbee instead

The fleeting $64 barlow lasted on the shelf for 15 seconds and the 3 the dealer posted for sale was an ad to create good will...

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mbkr said:
I used this one today. Its a great pocket knife :thumbsup:
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I love mine, but I'm not sure I love the antique yellow bone. It's alright, but if it was a little darker or more brown it would be perfect.

I keep flirting with the idea of dying it, but I've seen some recent posts which seem to show dye staining on the steel. I'm not sure I want to screw up the knife that commemorates my paternity leave with my son, but part of me likes the personal touch.
 
skx013k2 said:
For a retail customer (assuming you mean a customer who purchased it from an authorized distributor), we have no idea what the value of the knife is because at $64 they sold out in seconds and fippers are getting 3x that. If they were selling at anywhere near market value you’d still have some in stock a few days later. I routinely see GECs going for $250+ on eBay all the time.

Flippers can be a serious threat to any business. I suspect that’s why so many of us feel so uneasy about this current situation.
Click to expand...

theres one in the for sale section now :rolleyes:
 
knifeswapper said:
We didn't really see this problem until the name GEC went mainstream and gained the very large retail dealers attention. Once they started stocking them, many more customers started seeing them, and much more demand was born
Click to expand...

You may have just hit the root cause of all of this. Moving to the very large dealer networks. . . And now trying to navigate to demand driven by that new marketplace.
 
rdave said:
These are hokus pocus numbers... similar to being relegated to playing with an etch-a-sketch and finding they were better used as a frisbee instead

The fleeting $64 barlow lasted on the shelf for 15 seconds and the 3 the dealer posted for sale was an ad to create good will...
Click to expand...

What's hocus pocus?! Someone did purchase these for $64 and even now in this very forum there is one listed for $290.
 
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