Letter from Ontario's attorneys

okbohn said:
Just for my info...what is a common law mark?
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An unregistered trademark that becomes synonymous with a maker.

The most famous unregistered trademark in the world at one time had to be the distinctive shape of Coca-Cola's glass bottles in the golden age of such beverages.

AFAIK, "R.A.T.," the acronym, has been in use by the team from their beginning in the middle 90s, but the word "rat," would be difficult to properly trademark and even harder to defend. One might just get sued by that crappy butt rock band from the 80s. . . .:D;)
 
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Good to hear that Ontario is talking to you now and that they're making good on existing contracts (i.e. sending you the royalty check).

A few points:

I'm not surprised that the Ontario sales have improved. It's a well-designed and decently built product at a good price point. It's a gateway to good steel/micarta handle knives, many of which cost much more. As the knives get to be more well known, they're going to sell better. Apart from the recent quality control and customer service issues, Ontario/RAT designs have gotten lots of positive reviews here. Also, most users aren't aware that Bladeforums exists, and probably aren't aware of the legal wranglings and subsequent backlash in this forum. Also, I highly doubt that we're hurting Ontario's bottom line, since I doubt that knife enthusiasts are buttering their bread.

Next, despite this flyspeck annoyance, your public airing of the Ontario/RAT dispute seems to have struck a nerve and maybe gotten some action. Now that they're playing nicer, it might be good to tone it down. You can always ratchet the pressure back up if the deal goes south. I respect your personal integrity and desire to do business honestly, but I'd rather see R.A.T. survive and continue to put out their current line than piss off a big corporation and get killed off with paperwork. Give them some credit and a little reward for taking this first step, regardless of how hard it was to get here and how annoying the legalese is.

Finally, I said at the beginning of this thing that I would reserve judgement on buying Ontario products until I see how this works out. Right now, Ontario is moving in the right direction. I need some more Old Hickorys for the kitchen, so I hope they can wrap this up and come to a mutually amenable solution soon. :)
 
Anyone who thinks all this is hurting RAT Cutlery sales should look at the difficulty RAT's having keeping up with demand, let alone bringing new models on line.

I imagine the discrepancy between the time your attorney's letter was sent to Ontario and the time their lawyers got it, has to do with Ontario management hoping to find a way to stiff you again. But their lawyers would have told them to play it straight.

I used to tell my people that "mistakes make mistakes" and I'm sure that's what happened to Ontario. They were playing games, pushed it too far, and didn't know how to step back from the brink.
 
Once someone makes a mistake, he will continue not only to go astray but to compound the mistake, like making the wrong turn off the exit from the highway, and heading toward the wrong town. Once in the wrong town, finding the way back to the highway to try that exit again could lead to overshooting the exit from the other direction.

In the post office, if a clerk missorted a piece of mail, say to the wrong route, that wrong route might have a building with the same number but on the next street up. Not even looking at the street number, the carrier would misdeliver the letter.

When someone asks a question on Bladeforums and gets a blithely self-confident answer that happens to be wrong, he will repeat that wrong answer when someone else asks him, later on. And so urban legends grow, as ignorance asserts itself, generation after generation. :)

The solution is to catch the errror ASAP and bring it to people's attention, to make them aware of what can go wrong and how easily they can keep the original mistake from making them make a mistake in turn.
 
Esav,

Couldn't agree more. Pride is a strong thing.

We have always been willing to resolve any dispute peacefully. But in order to do that everyone has to get on the track of dealing with each other honorably. Maybe (and I say that with a lot of reserve) Ontario wishes to do the right thing here. We shall see since there are still a lot of bridges to cross.
 
I get that. It's like telling one lie and having to tell another and another to cover the first lie, pretty soon you're in a dark place.

I respect RAT's position that they just want what's fair (it's a survival thing) and are not out to slam another company as long as they do the right thing.
It seems there is room in the pool for everybody as long as they get along.
This is something many businesses don't seem to understand.
That's called greed!
Way to go R.A.T. CUTLERY !
 
It sounds like Ontario may be wanting to play a little more nicely. At least I know that The knives I have in stock are fully paid for!
 
Boats said:
An unregistered trademark that becomes synonymous with a maker.

The most famous unregistered trademark in the world at one time had to be the distinctive shape of Coca-Cola's glass bottles in the golden age of such beverages.

AFAIK, "R.A.T.," the acronym, has been in use by the team from their beginning in the middle 90s, but the word "rat," would be difficult to properly trademark and even harder to defend. One might just get sued by that crappy butt rock band from the 80s. . . .:D;)
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Thanks! That clears it up for me.
 
Boats said:
but the word "rat," would be difficult to properly trademark and even harder to defend. One might just get sued by that crappy butt rock band from the 80s. . . .:D;)
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two T's, good sir

[youtube]a5gMeXz2YMw[/youtube]

crappy butt rock band
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and you will be hearing from MY attorney :mad:
 
I'm trying to read it but its not processing. My brain is still in meltdown from finals. I'll check it out tomorrow.
 
I kept up with all of these issues from the start and I think the royalties being paid are at least a step in the right direction. Let's all hope it continues to at least improve. I support Mike and Jeff all the way. Derek has sold me the RC-3 and RC-4 PE knives with excellent service and I will continue to seek his business and the business of RAT Cutlery. I personally want to purchase the IZULA next as EDC in Guitar Town. My RC-3 has served me as an EDC for months. I plan on getting a RC-5 or RC-6 for my stepson who is in the USMC, to use in Iraq when he is deployed this fall.
 
BigE said:
I kept up with all of these issues from the start and I think the royalties being paid are at least a step in the right direction. Let's all hope it continues to at least improve. I support Mike and Jeff all the way. Derek has sold me the RC-3 and RC-4 PE knives with excellent service and I will continue to seek his business and the business of RAT Cutlery. I personally want to purchase the IZULA next as EDC in Guitar Town. My RC-3 has served me as an EDC for months. I plan on getting a RC-5 or RC-6 for my stepson who is in the USMC, to use in Iraq when he is deployed this fall.
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I've got to agree with you all the way - except that I actually don't have the RC-3 yet and my RC-6 is for me.

I was shooting Saturday and Sunday with one of my friends in the USMC and showed him some blades - including the RC-4. You should have seen the look on his face. He asked about a "longer" blade and I told him about the RC-6 coming out.

I think I've created a customer when he handles mine.

I'm glad to see that Jeff and Mike got their contractual royalties due to them. I hope Ontario realizes what is going on and drops their claim on RAT's logo and common law marks.

One thing I was thinking about, hearing Ontario's boost in sales, is that people may be buying up Ontario RATs for fear that they may not be available and they may want them until the RC versions come out. Whatever the reason, Jeff and Mike better keep getting their due.

Now, I just have to figure out which pommel RC-3 I want...
 
cmdr249 said:
I was shooting Saturday and Sunday with one of my friends in the USMC and showed him some blades - including the RC-4. You should have seen the look on his face. He asked about a "longer" blade and I told him about the RC-6 coming out.

I think I've created a customer when he handles mine.

...
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I've been EDC'ing my Izula since I got it and I think I may have to quite my regular job when these come out. I've got about a dozen people who want me to get them one already.
 
Something I noticed around here is that the vendors of Ontario have not heard of the RAT situation. I had a conversation with a vendor yesterday about this issue and because Jeff took her order at SHOT she refused to believe me. I told her to check out this forum but the response was "I don't have time for that." It was not until she asked another employee if he heard about it that she gave me some credence, funny because I was the one that informed him.
Too bad there is not some way to get the information out to the end of line sellers better.

I'll keep this up on my end for you guys though!
 
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