Liner and Frame Lock Reliability?

S

Surefiregeek

Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
2
I am currently looking for a new knife and have been concentrating on models that have well-sized finger choils and ergonomically shaped grips, well designed opening methods and secure locks.
This I'm sure brings many thought and opinions to mind on this forum, but the models that have most caught my attention are the Kershaw Junkyard Dog II, the CRKT Kasper 3.62 in. (both with serrations) and the soon-to-be-released SOG Vulcan.
While the Kasper employs the LAWKS system, which I like, I also love the grip shape of my SPEC-BUMP and the similar one found on the JYDII. My questions is has anyone ever heard/encountered/experienced problems with liner and frame locks that don't have security systems as the LAWKS and Gerber systems? Any unintentional closures due to the grips twisting in the hand or and errant thumb or finger disengaging the liner/frame lock? Thanks for any help.
 
My Kershaw Chive doesn't have any extra lock security, and I trust it more than any Gerber out there (Except pre-Fiskars knives)
 
Surefiregeek said:
I am currently looking for a new knife and have been concentrating on models that have well-sized finger choils and ergonomically shaped grips, well designed opening methods and secure locks.
This I'm sure brings many thought and opinions to mind on this forum, but the models that have most caught my attention are the Kershaw Junkyard Dog II, the CRKT Kasper 3.62 in. (both with serrations) and the soon-to-be-released SOG Vulcan.
While the Kasper employs the LAWKS system, which I like, I also love the grip shape of my SPEC-BUMP and the similar one found on the JYDII. My questions is has anyone ever heard/encountered/experienced problems with liner and frame locks that don't have security systems as the LAWKS and Gerber systems? Any unintentional closures due to the grips twisting in the hand or and errant thumb or finger disengaging the liner/frame lock? Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...

Welcome to BladeForums. :)

The efficacy of various lock types is a big topic of discussion here.
With that said, you might continue researching your knife purchase - the liner lock has its proponents and detractors regardless of the AutoLAWKS or RotoLock.
I, for one, happen to think the device is useful, but certainly not necessary.

Framelocks AFAIK are generally regarded more favorably than liner locks.

Then there's the lockback, the Axis Lock, the Arc Lock, the ball-bearing lock,
and some others as well.
 
th frame Lock is about the strongest lock you could ever find, second would be the spyderco compression lock. Other locks such as the axis while they look store, fail, and fail and fail again.
 
The folding knife whose lock I trust most is a steel-handled frame lock made by John Greco. I've got a Benchmade axis lock and it's great for EDC duties, but when I really need to cut something tough with a folding knife, I prefer a well-made framelock.
 
RazrBreed said:
th frame Lock is about the strongest lock you could ever find, second would be the spyderco compression lock. Other locks such as the axis while they look store, fail, and fail and fail again.
Click to expand...


do what?????BM axis locks RARELY fail, i dont know where ya are coming from with the statement they "fail, fail, fail again", i would say in probably 5 yrs i have heard of, well, none failing, occasionally an omega spring will break but if only 1 breaks it will still lock, if 2 fail it will still lock if ya manually put the lock into place, so i would have to say that statements BS.

the axis lock, compression lock and frame lock all have little quircks but all of them are great locks, as good as it gets in the year 2007 anyway.

and nothing wrong with a well fitted well made liner lock either.
 
RazrBreed said:
th frame Lock is about the strongest lock you could ever find, second would be the spyderco compression lock. Other locks such as the axis while they look store, fail, and fail and fail again.
Click to expand...

Do you have any evidence of this or are you just trolling?

I have lockbacks, Axis locks, frame locks and liner locks
and bar none the Axis lock is the strongest lock I have.
I use my knives hard and nothing else compares.
After heavy use liner locks and frame locks wear and then
you get blade play. Which really sucks.

I do have strong liner locks that I do fully trust and have tested
them against spine wacks and torques.

The only locks I have had fail on my is a frame lock after a spine
whack test and a couple of lock backs ... poorly executed lock backs,
not like spyderco's chunky lock backs. All these knives were on the
lower end of the price spectrum.

With my BM 710 I've battoned, chopped, and more and the thing
keeps asking for more. The lockup is as strong and solid
as the day that I bought it.
 
In my opinion, a frame lock IS the BEST lock that there is for security. Think about it, the lock gets tighter as you grip the knife. And with knives that have the Hinderer lock bar stabilizer, they are even better.
Here is what Hinderer lock bar stabilizer is all about:
Hinderer Lock Bar Stabilizer Explained.
Per Rick Hinderer:

"I felt that I should write a post explaining the new feature on Striders framelocks, the Lockbar Stabilizer.......Of course as all of you have found out it is obviously a overtravel stop..in other words it prevents the accidental overtravel of the lockbar during closing of the knife...some of you have stated that sometimes repeated closings sometimes weakens the lockbar and thus the lockup is not as tight,well, I can visualize that,but actually the problem I wanted to correct concerning overtravel is the complete overspringing of the lockbar thereby rendering the knife useless...cant be done some say?...a little story of how I came up with it...I am firefighter as alot of you know...while working a accident scene I was using one of my Firetac's to cut the upholstery material around a seat post prior to using the jaws to cut the post...being that it was a good wreck, and adrenalin was running high,and the fact that we wear heavy glove when working a MVA,I pushed the lockbar way to hard thereby springing it,and of course the blade could no longer lock,not a good thing to happen, at the wrong time! I knew then I needed to do something about it...The other issue I wanted to address was the lockbar springing towards the back of the knife when gripping it...this is what is not so obvious in a improvement...the reason is that sometimes the movement in the lockbar is not really noticeable when using the knife under normal conditions...but when you use the knife really hard, and really grip it you WILL move the lockbar..this is because to make a framelock or linerlock for that matter you have to cut the long slot in the frame or liner to make the lockbar,it does not matter what size slot you cut you will still have material missing there...simple physics, suggests that you have a lever and it will move toward the back of the knife...guaranteed...now, what does this mean...1, whenever you have movement in a mechanism it is a chance for that mechanism to fail..2,extra movement in the lock to blade joint will wear the lockface quicker...3,when the blade is locked up on a framelock with the lockbar stabilizer there will be absolutely no movement in the lock....

So given all this is the improvement overkill? Extreme?.....when do we stop designing extreme use knives,as in ... is good enough the way it is?
Myself and Strider Knives design hard use knives gleaned from actual field experience,I didn't hear of this problem from anyone else in the field,I was in the field and experienced it!...Given the addition of the Lockbar Stabilizer Strider framelocks are even tougher and more hardcore than before..worth it? YOU BET!!"



 
I had asked Fallkniven about this and this is the reply I got :D :

"Dear Mr. Poots (that's me, nice to be called Mr :D )

thanks for your questions.

We haven't tested the lock or break strength on our folders since we don't advice our folders to be used with violence. Our laboratory and field tests on many folders from the best makers in the world have pointed out that no folder is so strong that it should be considered reliable for heavy tasks in harsch environments. For that reason we don't build "strong" folders as our experience says that no folder is strong.

Our folders are reliable and built with care by experts. They will of course break or fail in function if you pound on them.

Best regards

Peter Hjortberger
www.fallkniven.com "

Just thought someone might be interested
 
It is all in the design and then the execution of the lock. When done correctly, would RARELY to NEVER fail.
 
For me it's not necessarily about failure. A well designed
compression, liner, frame lock is usually strong enough. It's about wear.
I have 2 frame locks. I used both everyday for about a month
a piece. One lock has moved all the way accross and the other is about 98% there. So, after a period of time they will loosen up and the blade
will have some play in it. they might stay closed but I'm not a big
fan of bladeplay in my knives.

As far as torquing goes that depends a lot on the ergos of the knife
and how the fingers fall accross the lock. I haven't had this
happen to me but I see how it could.

I'm really not sure why lockbacks aren't favored to the liner
lock family. They are very
reliable and don't wear out like the liner family of locks.
I have had a couple lockbacks for years (like 15)
and they are still locking up solid.
 
Well done frame locks, should NOT have any problems. But, not all knives are created equal. I guarantee that NONE of my custom frame locks would EVER fail.

But, that is the difference between a production knife and custom knives.
 
TheKnifeCollector said:
Well done frame locks, should NOT have any problems. But, not all knives are created equal. I guarantee that NONE of my custom frame locks would EVER fail.
Click to expand...

But in very high intensity applications, the pivot might fail.

At a certain point, for certain tasks, I move away from my folders and grab a quality fixed blade.
 
Linerlocks and framelocks are fine. My BM-Emerson 975 is now twenty-one years old. It's ridden inside my waistband for almost twenty of those years. It's hacked, chopped, and cut anything I've asked it to. It's been intertia slammed open more than 13 skazillion times...maybe 14. It's a linerlock and it's just fine. Oh the lock is sliding ever-closer to the inside..... a billionth of an inch at a time, and sometimes if intertia slammed open too hard it's hard to "unstick" the liner, it's still just fine.

Adding a secondary "protection" lock to a well-made liner or frame locks is like adding a safety to a double-action only semi-auto pistol....or to a revolver. The maker of that knife might not trust their competence in designing and making liner/framelocks.

I suppose it's possible, but I really think it's funny to suggest that a frame-lock gets tighter because of your grip on the knife. Are your fingers or some chunk of palm meat strategically placed at the precise location so that gripping the knife will exert pressure on the lock? hmmmmm Maybe. I'll have to try that..... It did make me smile though upon the first read.

I have never heard of an AXIS lock failing. That isn;t to say they haven't, but if it were commonplace or even relatively frequent, we'd be hearing about it.

I think any lock can fail... poorly made locks or those we want to treat like a fixed-blade knife. Not that we should never subject our knives to fixed-blade type treatment, but only with the understanding that they're not.

It seems ridiculous to me that someone might suggest their liner or frame lock will NEVER fail. They are steel. Steel wears. Everything has a lifespan. No offense to the knifemaker, it seems clear he's very proud and conscious of the work he produces, suggesting to me that his framelocks might be among the best around.

Welcome to bladeforums, Surefiregeek! Trust in the BM liner and framelocks (and a great many others, but certainly not all), and they'll be just fine. Or......get a BM AXIS folder (or a fixed blade). :)
 
Framelocks only need the Hinder stabilizer because the makers make the cut out thin for ease of opening, because some people complained about they're thumbs hurting. The stabilizer only helps to not bend it out of shape, not keep it locked. I would prefer a very stiff opening framelock with a thick cutout. And framelocks WILL disengage, if you put any hard twisting, or torque on them. I have seen a axis lock fail, but it was easily fixed by "brownie popping" the blade open, and fully setting the lock. The problem was the lock had not set yet, but as soon as it was no problems.
 
Very nice collection of knives there, WADEF. I especially like that maroon or red-scaled Caly and, of course, the mini-Skirmish FRAMELOCK. :) (I have long-since decided the mini-Skirmish will be my next folder)
 
I been using my Strider AR for over a year now ( probably close to 2 ) , the lock has not moved any further than when I got it. And I dont baby open the beast either , the lock on my PT hasnt moved in going on 2 years either.
Liner lock , frame lock , if done right ( there is the key ) , it should take a long time to wear , usually it is the portion of the blade where the lockup takes place that is crapola on some factory knives I have seen.

Never heard of an axis lock failing either.
 
This is a hornets nest that has been kicked. A well made frame lock, lock back, liner lock or Axis lock should have an extremely low faillure rate. You will probably get hit by lightning before a lock failure occurs.
Troll on.
 
Well, his post doesn't sound like he's trolling but, then again, there is that bolt of lightening that just hit him..... zzzzzzt
 
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