Liner and Frame Lock Reliability?

+1 on what WadeF said.

Good grief, RazrBreed! :rolleyes: :jerkit:

I certainly hope you step up to the plate and provide evidence for that asinine allegation or at least step up and admit you spoke out of your butt. :foot:

I have Axis Lock knives that I carry and use. Often time they are called upon to help me in landscaping, forestry and horticultural work, which will test the metal of any folding knife. I've never had an Axis Lock folder fail on me.
Not to say it CANNOT happen, because no folder, regardless of locking mechanism, is imminently, utterly reliable. They are, after all, already broken knives. :D Just compare them to any fixed blade. (Emphasis on fixed. :p )

Now, getting back to the OP's question, I believe the Frame Lock beats out the liner lock in reliabilty. I never owned a Frame Lock that failed on me regardless of the use it was called upon to perform. From the really inexpensive Kershaw Vapor up to the Camillus Madd Maxx.

I cannot make the same claim for the Liner Lock.
Liner locks can be finicky and rely on some pretty exacting tolerances to perform. Case in point, my Microtech MTX2's liner lock pops loose with an audible click! when torqued. It has not disengaged (yet!) to the point of folding on me, but is disconcerting nonetheless. And Microtech has a reputation for doing liner locks right. I had a Boker Gemini's liner lock fail on me when it hit a branch above a woody flower stem I was lightly chopping. I still have a scar from that little Oowie! These are only two of a number of little caveats I've encountered with liner locks. Many are great users, while some, well, are not so great.

Now, on the other side of this coin, I have two Spyderco Military's with almost scary thin liner locks that are surprisingly tough and reliable. I still marvel at them as they are strong beyond their initial appearance. Neither has ever shown the slightest inclination to fail. They are the top of the list of a very small number of liner locks I'd trust my life to in a pinch.
Hopefully, I'll never have to put up or shut up on that one.
eek2.gif
 
Well, at least you didn't say "Get a Sebenza!" :D

Not that theres anything wrong with that! (In my best Seinfeld voice imitation.)
 
Recently read some of Darrel Ralph's thoughts on linerlocks, thought I'd post them here:

"Beware the term "looks like it will fail" when discussing the lockup of a liner. Locks have been known to fail that are on the left edge of the blade, on the center of the blade or all the way across the blade. Assuming the lock engages the blade by at least the thickness of the liner then there are two things that make for a positive lockup: (1) correct tension on the lock , and (2) a 90 degree angle on the lock face & proper angle on the blade. If these two things are correctly done the lock will hold, if not, the lock will fail no matter where it sits on the blade. So the only way to know is to apply pressure to the blade and see if it holds. Every customer has a preference as to where they want to see the lock."
 
misque said:
+1 on what WadeF said.

Good grief, RazrBreed! :rolleyes: :jerkit:

I certainly hope you step up to the plate and provide evidence for that asinine allegation or at least step up and admit you spoke out of your butt. :foot:

I have Axis Lock knives that I carry and use. Often time they are called upon to help me in landscaping, forestry and horticultural work, which will test the metal of any folding knife. I've never had an Axis Lock folder fail on me.
Not to say it CANNOT happen, because no folder, regardless of locking mechanism, is imminently, utterly reliable. They are, after all, already broken knives. :D Just compare them to any fixed blade. (Emphasis on fixed. :p )

Now, getting back to the OP's question, I believe the Frame Lock beats out the liner lock in reliabilty. I never owned a Frame Lock that failed on me regardless of the use it was called upon to perform. From the really inexpensive Kershaw Vapor up to the Camillus Madd Maxx.

I cannot make the same claim for the Liner Lock.
Liner locks can be finicky and rely on some pretty exacting tolerances to perform. Case in point, my Microtech MTX2's liner lock pops loose with an audible click! when torqued. It has not disengaged (yet!) to the point of folding on me, but is disconcerting nonetheless. And Microtech has a reputation for doing liner locks right. I had a Boker Gemini's liner lock fail on me when it hit a branch above a woody flower stem I was lightly chopping. I still have a scar from that little Oowie! These are only two of a number of little caveats I've encountered with liner locks. Many are great users, while some, well, are not so great.

Now, on the other side of this coin, I have two Spyderco Military's with almost scary thin liner locks that are surprisingly tough and reliable. I still marvel at them as they are strong beyond their initial appearance. Neither has ever shown the slightest inclination to fail. They are the top of the list of a very small number of liner locks I'd trust my life to in a pinch.
Hopefully, I'll never have to put up or shut up on that one.
eek2.gif
Click to expand...


Every Bm Axis, except any variation of the griptilian has failed the test shown in this video. I have tried 3 different 710's, 2 of them directly from BM. The Knife in the Video is Directly from BM, just taken out of the package. This was the 3rd knife I got back from them due to axis lock failure and all 3 knives were different as I marked them on the inner tang.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8554907011337941497


Where I could do this to a frame lock or Compression lock and the lock would not fail, it is impossible for it to fail, unless something such as the pivot breaks or the lock melts.
 
from the strider faq.

Why does only the lower section of the lock bar contact the blade on Strider Folders?
Per Mick Strider:

"The reason we only want contact at the lower section of the lock bar is this:

1. For the most solid lock, you need two points of contact, as far apart as possible. (bump stop and lock face)

2. For the most solid lock, your lock contact should be as far away from the center line of the pivot as possible. This keeps your lock from "rolling" off the blade.

3. No matter how far from the pivot center your lock surface is, if its contaminated with crap (sand), it will fail. We send knives into some nasty shit. This is a huge concern for us. By making contact at the lowest section only, it creates a "shit vent" above the lock surface. That is the same reason we make our detent hole go all the way through the blade....its a "shit vent"."
 
RazrBreed said:
Every Bm Axis, except any variation of the griptilian has failed the test shown in this video. I have tried 3 different 710's, 2 of them directly from BM. The Knife in the Video is Directly from BM, just taken out of the package. This was the 3rd knife I got back from them due to axis lock failure and all 3 knives were different as I marked them on the inner tang.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8554907011337941497


Where I could do this to a frame lock or Compression lock and the lock would not fail, it is impossible for it to fail, unless something such as the pivot breaks or the lock melts.
Click to expand...

I saw this video before. I tried the same thing with my 710 thereafter
and couldn't reproduce it. Didn't you find a failure issue
with a Manix also? or was that someone else.... 'cause I remember
the videos being the same format.... maybe just coincidence.

Maybe you are just an outlier with 3 bad 710s in a row.
 
now I know what I have been doing wrong all these years , I been using the cutting edge to cut stuff instead of the spine !! ;)

another thing to effect lockup outside of the lock itself is the sides of the knife being parallel.
I have seen frame-locks and liner locks where the backspacer wasnt the correct thickness , thereby throwing off the lockup.
 
I don't know about anyone else here, but I have used over my many years knives with linerlocks, lockbacks and framelocks and have yet to have any of them fail on me. I am as confident with a linerlock as with a framelock or lockback, in any order. Unless the knife in question was poorly made, I personally don't worry that much about whether one type of lock is more likely to fail than another. I don't think I abuse the knives I use so again I don't think much about it. Maybe if one does fail on me then I may have different thoughts about it but until then, I'll buy whatever knife that I like regardless of the lock type. I will say that I think the framelock appears to be the stronger of the different types but that's just my own observation.
 
RazrBreed said:
Every Bm Axis, except any variation of the griptilian has failed the test shown in this video. I have tried 3 different 710's, 2 of them directly from BM. The Knife in the Video is Directly from BM, just taken out of the package. This was the 3rd knife I got back from them due to axis lock failure and all 3 knives were different as I marked them on the inner tang.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8554907011337941497&hl=en



Where I could do this to a frame lock or Compression lock and the lock would not fail, it is impossible for it to fail, unless something such as the pivot breaks or the lock melts.
Click to expand...


Funny, in another thread on 5-20-07 you say you found the video on the Spyderco forum:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8554907011337941497&hl=en



says it all. found on spyderco forum.



Here's a link to the thread -- post # 44

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474212&page=3

Now you seem to be saying you made the video? :confused:
 
RazrBreed said:
Every Bm Axis, except any variation of the griptilian has failed the test shown in this video. I have tried 3 different 710's, 2 of them directly from BM. The Knife in the Video is Directly from BM, just taken out of the package. This was the 3rd knife I got back from them due to axis lock failure and all 3 knives were different as I marked them on the inner tang.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8554907011337941497


Where I could do this to a frame lock or Compression lock and the lock would not fail, it is impossible for it to fail, unless something such as the pivot breaks or the lock melts.
Click to expand...

every single axis lock i have ever had would pass a spine whack just fine, why 3 would fail you i cant say but i know most axis locks will pass that easily.
 
SIFU1A said:
every single axis lock i have ever had would pass a spine whack just fine, why 3 would fail you i cant say but i know most axis locks will pass that easily.
Click to expand...


could have been sucky luck, like I said my griptilian and ritter grip pass it fine. Thogh if possible I do ask you to try the test and report your findings. you will notice I hit the knife not to hard but not close to the handle, I hit the knife about 3/4 the way from the pivot.
 
When it comes to locks I think reliability trumps pure strength every time.
And there are few locks as reliable as the Axis-lock and the lock-back.

In my experience, liner-locks and frame-locks are much more prone to failure than the Axis-lock or the lock-back.
While frame-locks are arguably better and more reliable, I simple don't trust liner-locks.
The last one I received failed the spine-whack-test every single time...and it was not a cheap knife either, it was a Lone Wolf knife.
It was not the first liner-lock to fail and I think I have finally learnd my lesson...
I will not buy another liner-lock folder ever again.
 
I think because more companies are doing liner/frame locks these
days there will be more failures. So let's say Hypothetically
that the probability of any lock failure is 0.001. If 1,000,000
knives were made this year and 80% were liner/frame locks then
800,000 * 0.001 = 800 knives would fail. Whereas all other locks
combined would only be 200. So, if you didn't know the production
numbers then you would think liner/frame locks are more likely to
fail then others.

Like I said, it's a hypothetical but I think it illustrates a point.
 
No, I think there are more failure because of the liner-lock design itself.
And let's not forget that Michael Walker (father of the modern liner-lock) also helped develope the LAWKS system, which is a safety for the liner-lock itself.
Think about it...
If the creator of the modern liner-lock himself felt that the lock needed an additional safety, then I'm guessing that he did not think the lock was perfect as is.
In fact, I wish ALL liner-locks had the LAWKS or AutoLawks safety incorportated.
Kudos to CRKT for bringing this to production.:thumbup:
 
If the creator of the modern liner-lock himself felt that the lock needed an additional safety, then I'm guessing that he did not think the lock was perfect as is.
In fact, I wish ALL liner-locks had the LAWKS or AutoLawks safety incorportated.
Kudos to CRKT for bringing this to production
Click to expand...

I think the key is "as produced by CRKT". I'll maintains if CRKT did a better jobs with the locks they wouldn't need LAWKS.
 
Good math - it does illustrate the point. Add low priced knives having a higher failure rate, and you have the current impression of liner locks here. As for pivot failure in hard use - please link to those examples. I have certainly missed them. Modern folder designs seem to have covered that one since the move away from thin brass rods to large diameter shouldered screw sets.

There have been photos of broken fixed blades at the choil from batoning. I'm not so impressed that it's a valid test of integrity when makers point out knives aren't wood splitters. It's just a last resort survival technique, an extremist test that only proves most knives will fail well before the mid point of the expected service life of the proper tool. I suppose we'll go through all this again when the new Rambo movie comes out.

Michael Walkers contribution to the LAWKS does point out the public's perception of the weaknesses in liner lock design in production knives. Carefully controlled, fitted custom and high end knives don't seem to need the extra liability coverage.
 
The creator of the modern liner-lock himself never felt that his own liner-locks needed an additional safety. :)
 
Carefully controlled, fitted custom and high end knives don't seem to need the extra liability coverage.
Click to expand...
I don't think that a custom hand-made liner-lock would fail, but otherwise there seems to be no difference between high end and low end liner-lock failures...

I've had a CRKT liner-lock fail the spine-whack-test and I've had a Spyderco Impala fail as well.
But I had a cheap Gerber Harsey Air Ranger that I could not get to fail no matter what I did.
My last liner-lock was a Lone Wolf T2 and it failed the spine-whack every time...and it's MSRP is over $200.00 dollars.
I sent it back to Lone Wolf and they fixed it for me, but now the lock travels all the way across the tang and is dang near impossible to unlock without using a screwdriver to pry it loose.

I've also had more than one liner-lock open inside my pocket because the ball detent and liner tension is easily overcome.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, but I strongly caution against liner-locks.
In fact, I will not buy another liner-lock folder again...especially since there are folders with better and more reliable locks readily available.

To each his own,
Allen
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top