Liner-lock failures...what a shock!

Lot's of great responses, I love this stuff
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The two big things to come out of this (for me) were 1. Man am I ever disappointed in my SOCOMs! Everything else about the knife is top notch, but they fail everytime with the slighest whack. 2. I've decided that this test is valid in the real world (even though I've never had one fail on me). Some of you might already know I'm nuts about having my knives super sharp, and I realized that if one of those blades closed on my fingers I'd have some nasty cuts. If it closed hard, I wouldn't be surprised if it took one of them off. I'm not going to throw out my MTs but I'll only trust certain liner locks for any hard use, and even then...

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
Joe Talmadge - gr8 answer and good response time too
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anyway - now I understand, and I know what I'm gonna be doing this weekend...

BTW - does the magazine have to be knives related (preferably TK) or can it be any one of my motorcycle magazines?
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Johan et al.,
I was sure we talked about this at length a few months ago. I complained pretty bitterly about my Gerber Applegate/Fairburn. The lock on mine is a joke, which is ridiculous for a double edged "fighting" knife [ I sharpened the top edge myself, but that should be no surprise ]. The lock failed in real use and I'm just lucky it didn't take a few fingers off. [Many others didn't have the same problem, but a few did.] That led me to test all my other liner locks on a regular basis, which I hadn't thought was necessary until then, and to replace the Gerber with a rolling lock REKAT and to rely more on small fixed blades. My oldest Liner is only a few years old and I wonder how reliable they'll be in the woods in a few years. The design has its limitations and dangers. Users need to be educated to that, and to educate their kids [and grandkids]very carefully too, especially if they plan on handing them down in the future.
 
HJK

what happened - how did it fail?

I must say the A/F folder is one of the designs I liked allot in the magazines, but as soon as I handled it once it felt so, well, flimsy, I never could get myself to get it.

lucky I didn't.

I agree totally about the need to educate about the problem - and from now on I will take a closer look at all the new locking mechanisms on the market.

 
Has anyone done the spine whack test on a liner lock with a secondary safety such as the Gerber Covert with the Interlock or the upcoming CRKT Crawford Kasper with the Lake and Walker Knife Safety (LAWKS).

I'm just wondering if this is a fix for the liner lock's weakness.

Axel
 
Tommi, I never said it was acceptable, just that it is something that isnt suprising given what I have read in the past.
 
Blilious,
I was doing some drills against targets - green branches and saplings. The lock failed on a backslash. No, I wasn't expecting it to perform as an ax: trust me on that one.
Test the lock every time in the safest way possible before doing any task with it that might stress the lock and put yourself at risk. Test it after any significant stress, too. And if it isn't 100%, don't keep it where anyone else can lay his or her hands on it. If they get hurt, you could be liable legally, even if they do something idiotic, like try to backslash a branch or a sapling, or try to use the knife as an ax...
 
After logging on this evening,I first visited this thread, then the one about the best tomahawk.This got me to thinking about the lock strength on my daily carry Socom (I will admit to being a MT fan,as well as owning several tomahawks). I went into the garage and placed the handle of my opened, daily carry Socom on the back of a sturdy, wooden chair. I proceeded to rap the spine of the knife sharply (in the center of the blade length) with a spare tomahawk handle. I did mar the finish slightly, but the lock did not fail. I repeat, the lock did not fail.
This test makes me feel pretty secure in my choice of daily carry knives. I didn't swing the tomahawk hahdle like a baseball bat, but I certainly would not hit myself on hte knuckles anything like that hard. I am thinking about testing my other Socoms in this fashion, although I will protect the finish on the spine with the others. The slight damage to the finish on this knife will remind me that this is my knife of choice and htat I am unafraid to subject it to "hard use".
I also do not expect this to convince all of the BF moderators, some of which seem to have an anti-MT bias. Oh, well.


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Thomas Coleman
Pensacola,FL
 
HJK - I am glad you did not hurt your fingers.

As for liner locks - well, there is another thread already that foresees the end of the liner lock all together.

well this may be true -

I did some testing yesterday and I was more then a little disappointed by the results:

my daily carry - Spyderco starmate - failed miserably.

Spyderco shabaria - snapped close before I could notice.

On the other hand - the benchmade emerson CQC6 held its own no matter how hard I hit it.

mind you - I was whacking the far end of the blades (the tip) - on my carpet and giving it a hand full - the spidies failed the benchmade did not.

should I change my daily carry back to the CQC?

haven't decided yet.


[This message has been edited by Blilious (edited 02-27-2000).]
 
Axel,

I have the Covert. The safety definitely improves the reliability by wedging between the scale and the linerlock. I have not had the Covert fail the spine whack. I don't see how it can unless the safety becomes loose. The Covert safety sits flat on the top of the handle when engaged so it is unobtrusive. The CRK&T KFF safety, as can be seen, protrudes a bit and may get in the way of a saber grip. Will have to handle one to find out.

I don't know why the safety is not being used as much. Perhaps, licensing issues. Perhaps folks don't like the extra step in disengaging the lock. Personally, I don't mind the extra step in exchange for reliability.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Originally posted by Stryver:
Misque:
You will only go blind if you whack it on your desk, and it shoots up and hits you in the eye. So you may want to tone down on your whacking, or at the minimum, whack away from your eyes. And to be fair, you should share the whacking through the rest of your collection too.Stryver

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
i have never had my butterfly knife fail this test...
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my kershaw whirlwind doesn't fail either. but the test does seem totally irrelevant. i have never tried to cut into something by hitting the back of my knife with an inanimate object while in a vice. if locks were failing backwards, like you push really hard with the cutting surface and the thing just bent back, i'd say, "can't use that knife anymore." but hitting the back?!?!

come on, guys.

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"If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
Such a funny quote, true or not.
-ediconu
 
Well here is a blast from the past on our first knife test done on February 13 last year.
Well the results are in and I must admit I am quite surpised at the results.

I will go in order of how the tests were performed.

First the arm shaving test.
Spyderco Endura Pass (Nice)
Benchmade Ascent Pass (Good)
Junglee Marshall Pass (humm)
Gerber E-Z Pass (Not bad)
Cold Steel Pass (Nice)
Taiwan POS Fail (
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)

The Cardboard test.
I tested these knives by cutting a 25" piece 250 test cardboard. The cardboard was laid on a table and pushed 2" out and a 1" strip was cut off from the full 25" length. I continued cutting until the knife either made the cardboard buckle under or simply became too difficult to pull through without resorting to lots of pressure. This is the test which can come under scrutiny but I tried to be as fair as possible and use the same force.

Spyderco Endura 4.8 (ATS-55)
Benchmade Ascent 5.5 (ATS-34)
Junglee Marshall 1.8 (AUS-10)
Gerber E-Z Pass 5.1 (ATS-34)
Cold Steel Pass 4.2 (AUS-8)
Taiwan POS
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Could not even start a cut. (Who the hell knows 420J2 maybe classic Rostfrei)

The numbers are the number of pieces successfully cut. 4.8 means I went through nearly 5 pieces at 25" each and so forth. In this test it appears as though ATS-34 won. Both the Benchmade and the Gerber were ATS-34.

A.T. Barr slap the crap out of the knife test. Now this is where it got interesting! Plus this test can be duplicated by forum members and I would be interested if your results are similar to mine.

Spyderco Endura Pass (Nice)
Benchmade Ascent Fail (and not very hard either)
Junglee Marshall Pass (Only liner lock in the bunch)
Gerber E-Z Fail (the lock looks like they are rounded off or smoothed. Not good for a lock)
Cold Steel Pass (Nice, Damn solid)
Taiwan POS Pass (I was amazed!)
spark-barr-bm2.jpg

Benchmade fails the Barr test.

Well as you can see the Gerber and Benchmade failed this test. I was very surprised at the Benchmade's failure but expected the Gerber as I have heard this before. We achieved the same results on the second test after the 30Lb lock test so no need to post them again.

Drop test. I held the knives at a 36" height and let the weight of the knife carry it to the floor which was solid concrete.

Spyderco Endura Pass (Nice)
Benchmade Ascent Pass (Good)
Junglee Marshall Pass (humm a very slight bend)
Gerber E-Z Pass (Not bad)
Cold Steel Pass (Nice)
Taiwan POS Fail (
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) Tip was badly bent.
junglee-drop.jpg

Drop was from 36" and simply the weight of the knife was used.
junglee-floor.jpg

Junglee on floor after test.
floor.jpg

After testing, the floor had several chips.


The 30Lbs on the lanyard hole test.
The Gerber did not have a lanyard hole so we could not test it here.

Spyderco Endura Pass (Nice, did not even budge)
Benchmade Ascent Pass (Same as Spyderco which is funny after failing the Barr test)
Junglee Marshall Pass (major stress bending)
Gerber E-Z Could not test
Cold Steel Pass (Nice, and again same as Spydie and BM)
Taiwan POS Pass (Thought it was going to fly apart but it held up although showing major stress)
spyderco-30lbs.jpg

spyderco-30lbs2.jpg

Pic of the Benchmade. As you can see, after the weight was applied, there is virtually no bending at the blade pivot juncture.

Conclusion:
Well all the knives functioned fairly well. The smooth operator was the Benchmade as far as ease of opening but the Spyderco and Cold Steel were hot on it's heals. The Gerber and the Junglee were pretty good and the POS was not too bad for a $1.95 knife. Afer testing, the POS and the Junglee now exhibit side blade play. Not too bad but you knife nuts would notice it. The other knives held up just fine even though 2 failed the A.T. Barr test.

The overall winner was......
A tie between the Cold Steel and the Spyderco.
spark-having-fun.jpg

After testing was done, Spark and I really whacked the crap out of both of these knives trying to get them to fail the Barr test. Neither showed any signs of wanting to let go of their locks. In fact while whacking the knives, you could actually feel how solid they were. If the Benchmade had not failed the Barr test it would have won hands down.

Well that's it the first test is over so look for them in the "For Sale" board.
knives.jpg

Here is a link to that thread to see the reponses. www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001290.html

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Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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unocide:

If you haven't heard about liner locks failing, you just haven't been paying attention. They fail way too often, and the harder people use them, the more often they fail. Someone who just opens mail and boxes with them will probably never see a failure. But many types of hard use, including training for self defense, involve serious progressive or impulse forces against the spine of the blade.

And these guys are only doing the spine test. They haven't even gotten to the main reason liner locks fail -- torquing. Torquing can happen in defensive or hard use applications any time the knife is buried deep in something and there's some twisting to get it out. A little bit of torque, a little bit of give in the washers, and the knife releases.

You're the only one who can decide which tests are relevant to you and which aren't. But I think you're dismissing these tests way too casually, based on a serious lack of information on how often people here see liner lock failures in use or during training.

Joe
 
sing,

Thanks for the info. I too wish more liner locks would incorporate the secondary lock.

I just e-mailed Pat Crawford to see if he will be incorporating the LAWKS on his knives. I'll await his answer.

Axel
 
Looks like Benchmade got their act together -because the CQC6 I tried held no matter how hard I slammed it.

I also found out that a carpeted floor is a much harder test then the "magazine-on-a-table."

Some fail the first but make it through the second - guess what I'm gonna be using as my test in the future.
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I don't like linerlocks too much either. But never had any problems with my MT. On the other hand noticed that my CRKT knives have locks that don't go under the tang all the way making it weaker. I also noticed (in case of few other knives) this "rounded or polished" lock problem that Mike mentioned in his test. Sometimes they even pass the tests but I still don't have very good feelings about them.

Kris
 
After all of this testing and my own shock, I have come to an interesting/logical conclusion. I need a Sebenza/
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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
Blilious,

Sounds like I need to save those old carpet pieces for knife testing. What I can't understand is why carpet would cause a failure when the Turber bench test or knife-on-a-magazine-on-a-tabletop wouldn't? Is there a torque effect from the carpet or some kind of bounce effect? What's the difference here which would cause more failures or make carpet a better whacking surface?

Belated thanks to you Joe (and A T Barr) for your efforts to warn us all about this problem.
 
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