Liner Lock

[gajinoz]

Unless you have some kind of physical disabiity you can, assuming you are not pre-teen or younger anyway. It doesn't take a significant amount of force. Certainly nothing comparable to the uses that would demand the blade thickness of the Striders. With the Sebenza you could argue it is a a blade profile optomized for lighter work, but even then the torques that will disengage liners/integrals won't break the blades on even those knives, so they are overbuilt from that respect.

-Cliff

OK, well let's assume that I'm not a disabled preteen and I could do it. I guess I could clamp the blade in a vice and grab hold of the handle and twist hard enough to disengage the lock. How many people has this happened to using the knife in real life situations? I'm a long way from being convinced that a good frame lock on a good quality knife is going to be a problem for too many people unless they are seriously abusing the knife.

 

[faramir]

Military uses. Tasks above average. Read the Benchmade testimonials from our men and women in the Military here in America. You will read a bit about more than opening a box. These are those tasks.

*You* read those testemonials. Cutting 1/4" - 1/3" steel rims with a folding knife ? You're looking at the wrong tool for that kind of tactical" job and are being worried bout totally irrelevant portion of the knife (its lock) for such "tactical" job so Cliff's "covert deanimation" reference [to ridiculous Dork Ops advertising] seems quite appropriate. What's next, shark and gator hunting joining the "tactical" chores ?

 

[Lil Timmy]

Unless you have some kind of physical disabiity you can, assuming you are not pre-teen or younger anyway. It doesn't take a significant amount of force. Certainly nothing comparable to the uses that would demand the blade thickness of the Striders. With the Sebenza you could argue it is a a blade profile optomized for lighter work, but even then the torques that will disengage liners/integrals won't break the blades on even those knives, so they are overbuilt from that respect.

-Cliff

I just don't see how a frame lock would fail by torquing the handle. There's a big slab of metal blocking the blade from moving, and the way you grip the knife blocks the locking bar from moving out of place. So as long as you were holding the lock firmly in place, how would you get the thing to fail?

 

[SIFU1A]

no one has said get a fixed blade yet lol?

there is nothing wrong with a well made liner lock, same for axis, compression, frame, all have weaknesses and strengths imho, of them all the liner probably is the most problematic, as it wears it moves and this can cause problems.

lots of companies use the liner imho because they are probably cheaper to make, and like i said before work fine most of the time.

only probs on liners i have had have been CRKT (2 failed) and a BM, a 975BT, all from wearing and moving to 1 side and then slipping.

i have never had a prob with an axis/compression or frame lock myself,

all striders i have seen are frame lock FWIW.

emerson also just came out w/a frame lock , the HD7 IIRC.

not many folks in the service use knives like this anyway, too high dollar imho, a SAK or a fixed blade maybe, but very few EKI/strider/etc i would bet, oh some for sure, just not many.

 

[jujawa]

I think the word tactical gets misused a lot in general. Tactics basically means strategy. When you practice tactics, or study tactics, often times you are using inert weapons anyways for safety purposes. I've never heard a tactics instructor say "I'm gonna need my tactical folder and tactical .45 to properly demonstrate this building search."

But, most people hear the word tactical and think the weapon is somehow superior and the products probably sell better.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

There's a big slab of metal blocking the blade from moving...

That tends to moves under torques.

-Cliff

 

[ARtsig1]

On a framelock, for right hand users.....would be the opposite for lefties, if you stick the point in a block of wood and then twist the handle in a counter clockwise manner you can create the torque forces needed to unlock it. Even though your right hand tends to grip the framelock and secure the locking bar, as you twist it your hand tends to mover over the bar and can actually help in causing the bar to unlock. At least I think that is sensible to say! With that said I have a framelock (RJ Martin Devastator), and 2 linerlocks (Strider AR, Dozier XL Folding Hunter) that I rotate between for my edc. The AR has a massive liner that locks and gives plenty of security for the uses I have, and the Dozier might as well be advertised as a framelock since it has liners .125" thick! It also inspires enough confidence for me to carry it and use. again for the tasks I need a knife for.

In a sd scenario, or a "lost in the woods" scenario, I would definately want a fixed bladed knife as my primary knife, and not one that is "broken" in the middle!

 

[Lee48]

Bottom line is that any locking device can be overcome. Before locking blades became dominant, people got along pretty well with slip-joint folders. Many still do. Having a blade lockup is good for increased safety but anyone using a folding knife should realize the lock doesn't make it equivalent to a fixed blade.

 

[Lil Timmy]

That tends to moves under torques.

-Cliff

Yes but how is it going to move out of place with your fingers pushing against it the other way?

 

[phatch]

Because in a torque situation, your hand is also generating forces in that direction to slip the lock.

Phil

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes but how is it going to move out of place with your fingers pushing against it the other way?

It is more secure than a liner lock for this reason, but it is difficult to apply a high compressive force on the lock while you are torquing. Plus in many cases the grip is actually quite light, such failures have been reported simply weeding or cutting cardboard so it is hardly the case that you are white knuckling the grip. The forces involved are actually quite small.

-Cliff

 

[Shing]

The problem with the liner lock/frame lock is the angle at the tang is always trying to cam the locking liner off. When the blade is forced down, their is a competition between the camming force that is trying to push the liner off and frictional force between the tang and the liner that stops it. If the camming force overcomes the frictional force, the blade will close. There is also a small force keeping the blade open from the springiness of the liner but its quite small. When forced, thin liners also bend and suddenly release could spring back and cause unlocking as well.

So the liner lock like most locks is inherently unstable.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Bottom line is that any locking device can be overcome.

No, bottom line is that some locks are more secure than liner locks under torques and impacts and thus have a broader scope of work.

-Cliff

 

[cdf]

All locks have inherent vulnerabilities . Lockbacks often fail to lock up due to pocket crud getting in the wrong spot . Liners are pretty failure prone . Frame locks are a lot more stable , but have reported vulnerabilities . The axis might be problematical in extreme grunge conditions . Generally , treat all lock types like they are slipjoints , and you will have long and happy fingers . If you go in harms way with a folder , know your equipment's limitations .

From personal experience , the only lock types I've never had trouble with are Axis and Frame locks .

All that said , whenever I get a new toy I wring it out pretty hard .

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I guess I could clamp the blade in a vice and grab hold of the handle and twist hard enough to disengage the lock.

It doesn't take a vice, it has happened in weeds and cardboard.

-Cliff

 

[WadeF]

The axis might be problematical in extreme grunge conditions.

As would a lock back. I got sand in my Ritter Grip the other day (cut open a bag of sand for my son's new sand box) and it didn't mess up the lock. I was trying to be careful to not get sand in the knife, but that damn stuff has a way of finding it's way into anything. The action was gritty so I knew I got sand in it, but it would still lock up fine. The Axis bar is more apt to push dirt away as it slide across to lock the blade in place. A lock back however just traps dirt and doesn't have a way to push it aside, it just closes right on it which can cause lock up failure.

My Sebenza's frame lock will readily fail if you twist the handle the wrong direction. While I don't usually stab and twist things I'm not that worried about it, but I can see if I were in a self defense situation, when you are under stress and may not be thinking enough to make sure your gripping the knife carefully as to not pop the lock, that you might release the lock. The Sebenza especially leaves the lock bar widely exposed, where on a Camillus Dominator it's covered more from the opposite side of the handle. When you twist with a Dominator you tend to put pressure on the non-locking side of the handle. On the Sebenza there is a gap and when you twist you are more apt to press against the lock bar in the direction that would release it.

 

[cdf]

Cliff , I just tried the cardboard thing (3 layers ) with both a Strider SNG and a large Sebbie . In both cases the blade rounded out the hole , no hint of lockbar travel .

 

[WadeF]

Cliff , I just tried the cardboard thing (3 layers ) with both a Strider SNG and a large Sebbie . In both cases the blade rounded out the hole , no hint of lockbar travel .

For those of us who are more experienced knife handlers and are aware of such possible failures we will do what we can to prevent this from happening. However, if someone was cutting cardboard and twisting that had no clue the lock mail fail they might have the knife's lock fail on them and cut themselves.

 

[cdf]

Wade you may be right , I am pretty experienced with frame locks and I may instinctivley avoid certain moves .

 

[Lil Timmy]

Here's the question, what is Cliff's favorite type of lock? I find it very odd that he hasn't tested an Axis lock yet.