Liner Lock

[cdf]

In the interests of science , I'll tape the blade for saftey , and let a complete noob try it .

 

[Mr.Moose]

I have noticed that all the Knife brands that claim to be tactical, use a Liner lock. Companies such as Emerson and Strider and even Spyderco and Benchmade in some cases. I wanted to know why this lock is chosen for tactical tasks. It doesn't seem to be the best placed or the strongest. Why do all of these companies still use it?

Probably marketing and personal preference on behalf of the maker/designer, or customer (as you can tell by the responses). I think that "tactical" may be over used in this regard. From my own personal experience my Random Leek's liner is more than enough knife for the tasks I use it for.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In both cases the blade rounded out the hole , no hint of lockbar travel .

It requires side torques, the blade needs to bind in something and then attempt to free by twisting. Since the Strider has a 3/16" blade it is obviously designed to enable heavy side loads, far more than what is required to disengage the lock. Jam the blade in a piece of wood and try to split it by twisting the handle.

Here's the question, what is Cliff's favorite type of lock?

Depends on the knife and what it is intended to do.

I find it very odd that he hasn't tested an Axis lock yet.

When they first came out they were promoted as being able to stand "200 lbs of reverse pressure", this was nonsense for several reasons and I was never able to get clarification on the testing method thus I obviously wasn't running out to order one.

As favorable reports came in, so did reports of Axis locks failing spine whacks, springs breaking, and so forth, which didn't exactly create any enthusiam for purchase and the lock testing never did get specified.

Combine this with Benchmades heat treat which has been problematic in the past and still is based on what I recently saw with the Skirmish, and the tendancy for over thick edges and heavy grinds, my money was better spent elsewhere.

Recently the Ritter Grip looks promising and I still keep a look out for a used 710.

-Cliff

 

[Lil Timmy]

"Depends on the knife and what it is intended to do"

For a "tactical", hard-use, military type folder. Also what is your favorite knife of this type?

 

[XGrip]

5022.. What the hell are you talking tantos are NOT ineffective. It depends what your trying to cut. For hard use the tanto is a superb cutter. I can tell you working in a warehouse as a partime job my BM Stryker cuts through any given thing the least bit of effort! Oh btw no offense im just making an argument..

 

[5022]

I think they are. if you arent stabbing. they really dont offer any thing better,

 

[XGrip]

Well its your opinion i can respect that. But if you dont own any tantos give the BM 910 a whirl. Maybe borrow one or handle on or something. Ull see due its geometry it can hack like an axe, and cut thru pretty much anything cuttable. For example, As a test cut i slashed a large card board box and took off a good 3 feet clean! No sawing. Just one sweep. But back to the liner lock discussion.

 

[GarageBoy]

You only need belly for skinning anyways. I find tantos ok

 

[cdf]

With all respect Cliff , if I stuck a knife in a piece of wood , I'd never try to free it by twisting the handle . I'd work it back and forth vertically . I wouldn't even do that with a fixed blade .

I honestly dont think any folder regardless of lock type , including the Spyderco Chinook and or Manix will bear up well under those circumstances .

 

[Lee48]

I've yet to have any type of locking system fail on any of my knives--at least fail when in use. Of course, I don't use them as heavily as many people here (obviously). What I do know is that the cheap Taiwanese Gerber liner lock I have will fail to hold the lock if it's tapped sharply on the blade spine. The nice little Al Mar Ultra Light back lock will pick up enough pocket lint to keep it from locking--so will the the Delica and Endura when I carry them unclipped in my pocket. My super solid Spyderco Manix back lock can be dislodged with a tight rear grip with my big hand. My Al Mar SERE 2000 locks up tighter than any knife I own but I know the lock can fail so I don't tempt fate.

 

[gajinoz]

It doesn't take a vice, it has happened in weeds and cardboard.

-Cliff

I would have to see it to believe it. I don't claim to be the most prolific cutter of carboard on the planet but I have been through a pretty fair amount of the stuff, including the use of an assortement of cutters and knives of both frame and liner lock varieties. I've used knives at each end of the scale, Kershaw Chive to Strider SnG, and, to my knowledge, never come close to disengaging the lock.

Obviously I can't state categorically that it can't happen but, like I said, I'd have to see it to believe it.

 

[bigdog]

I don't use it to cut down trees, build shelters, and clean fish (I have a filet knife for that). I don't install carpet or open many envelopes. Maybe, I just like the way the SnG looks and feels in my hand. I don't get into knife-fights (probably cut myself). But I do find that the one handed operation comes in very handy, when I'm in the shop and I'm holding something with the other hand.
Did I NEED the Strider? Of course not! I'm just obsessed, and can't help it.
But then I read that some people EDC 2-4 knives every day, or read these pages everyday, to see what others think about the knives that they like. Maybe, I’m not the only obsessed one here.
I can feel the wind in my hair on a bicycle or roller-skates, but it’s much more fun on my Harley. Coulda got a 350 Honda, but it’s not the same. Like most Harley riders say, “If I have to explain it to you, you just wouldn’t understand.”
Or maybe it's just me!

 

[dino]

... I wanted to know why this lock is chosen for tactical tasks. It doesn't seem to be the best placed or the strongest. Why do all of these companies still use it?

Strider folders are very well engineered. Following are some quotes from the Strider Unofficial FAQ addressing failures caused by twisting and dirt buildup.
-------------------------------

Why G10 on the SnG/SMF instead of all Ti?
Per Mick Strider:

"The actual reason is that as much as you think it would ‘look’ cool. It’s a less quality knife. We use the G10 because it is rigid as hell. Ti is rather flexible by nature…it moves around quite a bit. The way we mill the G10 it is a solid piece of .390” thick material.

There are a lot of other reasons I could toss in there as well.

Its cold on your skin.
It is less ‘grip-able’."
-------------------------------
Why does only the lower section of the lock bar contact the blade on Strider Folders?
Per Mick Strider:

"The reason we only want contact at the lower section of the lock bar is this:

1. For the most solid lock, you need two points of contact, as far apart as possible. (bump stop and lock face)

2. For the most solid lock, your lock contact should be as far away from the center line of the pivot as possible. This keeps your lock from "rolling" off the blade.

3. No matter how far from the pivot center your lock surface is, if its contaminated with crap (sand), it will fail. We send knives into some nasty ****. This is a huge concern for us. By making contact at the lowest section only, it creates a "**** vent" above the lock surface. That is the same reason we make our detent hole go all the way through the blade....its a "**** vent"."​

------------------
The lock is further strengthened by the Hinderer Lockbar Stabalizer. An explanation can be read here Hinderer/Strider
And if all else fails the choil on a Strider will save you from cutting your trigger finger off! These are some of the reasons I broke down and bought a Strider. My EDC at work is a custom balisong which probably has the best lock available on a knife. Unfortunately Balisongs are considered illegal. My 24/7 EDC is a Strider SnG.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Strider folders are very well engineered.

Yes it is well made for a integral, so are lots of other knives, however the lock type itself has an inherent instability which Mick himself admitted for the production version and would not comment when I asked him directly if the custom behaved any different. By the way low partial engagements such as described in the above induce a huge shear weakness.

I would have to see it to believe it.

Torque failures are well known for liners and integrals. It seems more likely to me even if I had not seen it that this would be true rather that there is a vast conspiracy of individuals out to purposely discredit the lock, especially when some of the people involved like Joe have extremely sound reputations for solid user feedback and makers have taken steps to address it (LAWKS).

Now of course how hard you have to torque the locks depends from one knife to another, same with impacts. Some can fail at so light levels that you can just pop them off your palm and they fail, or twist them in a piece of thick cardboard and the lock releases. Some are more stable than this but they are not as stable as other types in this regard.

I honestly dont think any folder regardless of lock type , including the Spyderco Chinook and or Manix will bear up well under those circumstances .

I have done it they will. The lock is much stronger actually. I jammed a Chinook II into wood to the point where I wasn't stong enough to rotate it and it held up fine under rotating torques. If you won't twist or pry with folders as heavy and thick as the Striders then all their mass is a waste.

The only reason for the use of the weight and thickness of the heavier built knives, and use materials like G10 / steel is to allow work which you would not do with something like a FRN Delica. If you don't do this, use the lighter knives they are much better choices.

As for not doing it with a fixed blade, a Mora 2000 has a ~1/16" thick blade and you will not break it by twisting it in woods to the extent that liners/integrals would long have been disenageged, I have done it. The strength along that axis is insane, and you don't have a significant lever arm on a blade that short. Leveraging it sideways of course is a different matter, you will break it readily then.

The only blades I have that I would restrict that much, no twisting, are 1/16" ones, hollow ground left at full hard.

...hard-use

I have not handled anything I would classify as being suitable for "hard-use". The Manix comes close in many respects, solid grip and lock, but to really fill that label the point would want to be heavier to allow deeper prying in woods and use a tool steel instead of S30V as it is not very flexible. I would also extend the slabs up further on the blade to support the piviot in prying. The 710 M2 is probably one of the better choices as well.

-Cliff

 

[dino]

Yes it is well made for a integral, so are lots of other knives, however the lock type itself has an inherent instability which Mick himself admitted for the production version and would not comment when I asked him directly if the custom behaved any different.

Cliff,
I think we all agree there are problems associated with frame locks in general. That is why Strider knives have these extra features. By "production version" are you refering to the Buck/Striders?

By the way low partial engagements such as described in the above induce a huge shear weakness.

I would have to disagree based on the fact that friction is independent of the surface area in contact. It's just as hard to push a desk upsidedown as it is to push it on it's feet.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

By "production version" are you refering to the Buck/Striders?

Yes. I specifically asked Mick, among other things are the customs problematic under the same conditions which broke the lock on the Buck/Strider. I also asked him, when users were claiming extreme toughness would he warrenty his folders under the kind of heavy use I did with the Chinook. He would not address either issue.

I would have to disagree based on the fact that friction is independent of the surface area in contact.

Shear cracks are not friction based. When you load the lock by prying vertically, if there is only light partial engagement you can shear crack the lock as part of the face is loaded and compressed and part is not. The less then engagement the easier the lock will be to crack.

-Cliff

 

[dino]

.... Shear cracks are not friction based. When you load the lock by prying vertically, if there is only light partial engagement you can shear crack the lock as part of the face is loaded and compressed and part is not. The less then engagement the easier the lock will be to crack.
-Cliff

Thank you for clearing that up. If I understand correctly you are refering to a piece of Titanium cracking off the lock bar. I thought by "shear weakness" you were refering to the lock bar slipping.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...the lock bar slipping.

Nah, a lot of people make a big deal about lock bar thickness and such to enhance security, but this doesn't do much for that.

-Cliff