Linerless slip joints

I like them both ways. For larger knives weight becomes an issue for me, and the linerless design is a good answer to that.

If you handle some of the linerless slipjoints out there, you will find that they have a beauty of their own. I have handled a few of Ray Laconico's linerless knives, and they certainly don't seem cheap. Quality construction can be found in a variety of materials, not just with NS, brass, or stainless liners and bolsters.

And let's not forget about the one large scale manufacturer that is making linerless slipjoints using G10 scales - Spyderco. The UKPK and Urban designs are linerless slipjoints.
 
Here's a vintage Traditional. No liners and a hidden spring.

Knife by Bruckmann.

Bruckmann.jpg


Bruckmann2.jpg


[err... maybe the liners are hidden. I should go check...]
 
LarryM said:
Jason , is this what your looking for? Larry

DSCN2451.jpg



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DSCN2453.jpg
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How did that one slip past me? :)
I had no idea. I'll be getting touch with Bret to see if would make one of these for me.
 
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I was just thinking about the cost difference in making a knife with or without liners. Since we are talking about shadows, liners don't raise the cost in time or materials that much. It takes maybe 15 minutes to rough out a couple of stainless sheet rectangles, clean them up, and glue them to equal sized handle slabs. After that, everything I do to prepare the handles with or without liners is the same. Drilling holes, cutting out and finalizing handle profile, milling tang relief...all that is done whether there are liners or not. It's darn near a wash in cost difference between liners or linerless.

I guess the point is, for not much additional time and a couple bucks worth of stainless steel, a knife with liners will be sturdier, have some contrast, and weigh a wee bit more.

Like TAD says, it's Coke or Pepsi. Maybe its more like Coke and Sam's Club.....Sam's is linerless :D

uhhhhh...actually TAD said DR PEPPER but I was thinking Coke...I dont know why:o
 
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Thanks for explaining that Kerry. I knew the material cost couldn't be more than a couple bucks, but I thought that the time involved was more.
 
Hmm, Coke or Pepsi. Hard dessions.

I have to admit I have mixed feelings both ways. I know for all intents, a linerless folder will cut things just as good as a non linerless knife. The Douk-Douk, Mercator K55, Opinel, Gerber LST's, Buck lightweights, and a host of others I can't think of at the moment, all are good knives. Hordes of hard working people have used them hard over the last century with good effect.

I always had the idea in my head that with liners, the knife may be a bit more servicable under dirty conditions like what I encountered in the army. Sand, mud, grit from dust on construction sites, all worry me a little with no liners. I wonder about the long term effects of grit on the pivot area with steel and micarta or some other kind of material unprotected by a brass or steel liner like on a sodbuster.
 
Wow, this is a great thread.

1. That Ti handled Dowell is incredible.

2. See, stupid question by me was handled in a "nice" way. I've never owned a Sodbuster & didn't know they had liners.

3. I have one linerless slippie (Which I posted a pic of earlier in this thread) & long term wear is probably the only thing that I'd be concerned with. It's not so much the pivot in the material as it is what's been mentioned: dirt/grime getting into & scratching the softer G-10/micarta handles vs steel liners.

Having said all that, another great point was made about Spyderco's Slipits (I believe currently UKPK, Urban, & Terzuola) & they seem to work just fine.

As for lower cost or no. I'm guessing that while it might not take that much more time to make a Shadow with liners, it's still quicker & less time consuming to make & hence the slightly lower prices for a linerless Shadow vs Shadow with liners, plus they area a little lighter. They seem like an excellent "dress" knife that is light.

Great thread & as usual, an education for us neophytes.
 
CL01 said:
3. I have one linerless slippie (Which I posted a pic of earlier in this thread) & long term wear is probably the only thing that I'd be concerned with. It's not so much the pivot in the material as it is what's been mentioned: dirt/grime getting into & scratching the softer G-10/micarta handles vs steel liners.

Having said all that, another great point was made about Spyderco's Slipits (I believe currently UKPK, Urban, & Terzuola) & they seem to work just fine.
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There's the rub that makes me feel torn. I know that it's worked in the past for lots of makers/manufactures, but I feel that my feeling of trepidation is just my own built in predjudices. I've used Opinels as beater knives, and had zero problems, even with use in the garden and the dirt that comes with that. My opys worked just fine, as did my Douk-Douk. Of course the Douk-Douk is a metal handle like the German Mercator, so dirt would have a harder time wearing the handle that's acting as a liner. But my point is, my Opinels survived just fine under hard use conditions.

I guess my only question is what is the surface hardness of G10 and micarta, and can it stand up to dirty conditions?

Seeing as how the Gerber LST is a prime example of a low cost knife being abused by a few of my co-workers, I'd guess linerless knives are just as practical when used as an edc pocket knife. I have a friend who is still using an old Bucklight from the 80's, and he doesn't baby it, so they must work. Maybe I'll have to try a linerless soddie from one of the custom guys.
 
I gave a lot of buck lights away in the late 80s early 90s. Everyone is still in operation with no problem, except for a broken tip, which has nothing to do with a liner. Liners are not needed if the knife is well made and not abused. FOr some knives (a Boye lockback comes to mind) they offer a significant advantage in being slimmer and lighter, for those that like it that way.
 
CL01 said:
Wow, this is a great thread.

1. That Ti handled Dowell is incredible.

2. See, stupid question by me was handled in a "nice" way. I've never owned a Sodbuster & didn't know they had liners.

3. I have one linerless slippie (Which I posted a pic of earlier in this thread) & long term wear is probably the only thing that I'd be concerned with. It's not so much the pivot in the material as it is what's been mentioned: dirt/grime getting into & scratching the softer G-10/micarta handles vs steel liners.

Having said all that, another great point was made about Spyderco's Slipits (I believe currently UKPK, Urban, & Terzuola) & they seem to work just fine.

As for lower cost or no. I'm guessing that while it might not take that much more time to make a Shadow with liners, it's still quicker & less time consuming to make & hence the slightly lower prices for a linerless Shadow vs Shadow with liners, plus they area a little lighter. They seem like an excellent "dress" knife that is light.

Great thread & as usual, an education for us neophytes.
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Yes..this has been an insightful(and inciteful) thread. :p

In terms of the time it takes to hand make a knife from start to finish, what I was attempting to point out is that the cost of putting liners on a shadow is miniscule in terms of time and material for the whole project.

It takes me about 16-18hrs(generally) to make a shadow..2 days of work.

The big jump in cost comes when making the knife with bolsters. It takes another day of work...3 days for a bolstered knife.

Others mileage may vary, but IMHO the additional cost of a liner'd knife is more due to the fact that it's a better knife and not as much that it takes less time and materials to make.

On the other hand, time is precious to someone doing it for their livelyhood, unlike myself who is doing it cuz I just loves to makes pocketknives! :D

...and NO, I won't be GIVING THEM AWAY NOW ;)
 
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KnifeHead said:
SNIP
It takes me about 16-18hrs(generally) to make a shadow..2 days of work.

The big jump in cost comes when making the knife with bolsters. It takes another day of work...3 days for a bolstered knife.

SNIP
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Kerry, I agree with most of what you have said, but not the above snippet concerning the amount of time to make a shadow vs a front bolstered knife. I realize this depends greatly on the maker and while what you have stated may be true for you, I don't think it is the norm. In fact, I had thought about (and still might) make a poll about the cost of shadow patterns vs bolstered knives.

Many makers differentiate little or none in their price structure for a shadow vs a front bolstered knife, but buyers seem to expect them to cost less. I guess this could be due, in part, to your "better knife" theory. Funny thing is that some people see shadows as "better" and maybe that accounts for the willingness to pay about the same for them at times. I can't speak for all makers, but I know that Ray Cover considers a shadow pattern only slightly faster to make, but then he made over 200 slipjoint knives a year for several years...He also still uses a pivot bushing on his shadows.
 
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Not that I have talked to all makers , but majority have a definite price difference between front bolsters , front & rear bolsters and no bolsters.
 
I have had makers tell me they have a harder time making shadow pattern because you have to make the bushings for the outside of the knife handles. It takes me longer to finish a knife w/bolsters. I charge more for bolsters as do most makers. Linered knives are definately stonger. I feel there is no knife better than a shadow pattern for the way I use a knife.
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
Not that I have talked to all makers , but majority have a definite price difference between front bolsters , front & rear bolsters and no bolsters.
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I don't doubt your experience John, but I guess we're just talkin' to different makers:) Some of the one's who regularly post on here differentiate very little or too irregularly to make a conclusion. A lot seems to be based on what the market will bear. There is also big difference in how shadows are constructed from one maker to the next and even between different knives from the same maker:confused: All of which, without a doubt, contribute to variations in pricing.
 
rickmenefee said:
I have had makers tell me they have a harder time making shadow pattern because you have to make the bushings for the outside of the knife handles.
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A great point, Rick. I've had two makers turn down a shadow order for that very reason and had others "acquire" their bushings from other sources.
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
Not that I have talked to all makers , but majority have a definite price difference between front bolsters , front & rear bolsters and no bolsters.
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Yep, that's definitely been my experience too.

Makes sense to me - again, it's not the bolster material that's the expense normally (assuming the usual stainless steel or nickel silver) -- there's just a heap of fiddling, fitting, soldering, welding, milling, finishing and other processes that are added or change (depending on the particular maker's processes) and normally become more complex, or at least more time consuming once bolsters are added to the build.

As for Ray Cover, I've seen a heap of his bolstered knives (with integral bolsters I think) but very, very few shadow patterns -- assuming this holds for his production in general, I'd say he's got all his processes, routines, and fixtures set up for his bolstered designs - the shadow patterns are very much the exception, and generally put a small kink in his accustomed work flow. Wouldn't surprise me if making shadow patterns actually takes him almost as long as his usual bolstered knives.

-- Dwight
 
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