List of manufactrers - makers who test their knives.

nozh2002 said:
Can you add any company to that list?

Thanks, Vassili.
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Nope I sure can't.

nozh2002 said:
Well, this is what I was feeling also until I discovered pretty disappointed failure in quality in several expensive and highly advertised knives. Turns out that it is usual practice for many to relay on following some production process from steel manufacturers or little birds and do not test edge retention quality.
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I'll say we've invested into a few of those little birds Vassili, but they're advice isn't cheap. :)
 
jawilder said:
I have no dog in this fight but have found it interesting.

I generally appreciate the topics brought up here in bladeforums and the manner in which they are handled. The adults here are curteous and generous. But db, my friend, there is a fine line between criticism and rudeness and I'm pretty sure you have crossed it several times. If Nozh makes you so angry then simply don't read his post. That way the rest of us don't have to sift through your childish playground bickering.
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I am simply asking him to inform the rest of us in who these many are that he has discovered that do not test. Unlike you I haven't called him childish or even been rude as you have been with me. In my opinion my posts and questions are very much on topic unlike yours.
 
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Thomas W said:
Maybe all brand names do, maybe. Some may not care. Steel performance for manufacture's of certain lower price points or imports I don't personally feel care too much. If one doesn't pay attention to build quality, why then steel performance? This of course is just my opinion, and I have no knowledge to back them up. Just saying...
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They may not care that they are getting the most performance out of the steel but I'm guessing they care that they are getting the most profit out of it. I'm also guessing but I believe they do test for a quality of there product. However, like you that is just a guess and I could easily be wrong. In fact Noz is claiming that he knows of many who don't do testing and it would be nice to know who they are.
 
Every knife maker or mfg checks & tests their product for form, function, & safety - the same standard that every product maker is responsible to do. Which is, of course, the most important thing for them to do. I suspect that if the hi-tech new folder I got was really a hand grenade and I got blowed up trying to open the dang thing, my brother-in-law would try to get my wife to sue.

Anyone, especially someone who has followed this forum at all, should be able to figure out without too much trouble that there is no return to the steel mfg or knifemaker by doing edge retention testing. Maybe the fact that there is no standardized test would give it away? There isn't even one method that would make everyone happy - an I like CATRA, you like the human factor (ie. the chance transverse forces applied by hand cutting) thing.

I say let's look at the steel data and continue to argue about testing (you have no choice when no one can even decide on what you should test for) :D - or come up with our own definitions & tests. The steelmaker is the point in the supply chain that is held accountable for providing standardized test results. And they are held accountable to provide uniform and good product by the buyers who test their products made of the steel (knife manufacturers included). If you want your knife certified and tested well beyond the present standards, you are going to end up with one of those $600 toilet seats like the government bought. Yeah, it's tough, but the price is steep.
 
I wonder about companies that have changed ownership for example some of my older gerbers are among the best quality knives i own .isuspect when pete gerber was runing the show they did a lot of testing .some of my newer gerbers a somewhat different scenario.
 
Not sure of what you mean by:

"Anyone, especially someone who has followed this forum at all, should be able to figure out without too much trouble that there is no return to the steel mfg or knifemaker by doing edge retention testing. "

Lots of knifemakers do edge retention testing. They'd be idiots not to since their users will quickly tell them is the knives don't perform. Materials manufacturer's may not do the testing themselves, but partner with their customers. For example, S30V was developed by Crucible in conjunction with Chris Reeves Kinves, plus others IIRC.

Sometimes the lack of a standardized test is just a testimony to the type of industry. The knife industry, although mature, has always been prey to "secret steels" "secret tests" "secret heat treatment", etc. Even now, who knows what is in Infi or TruSharp? Heat treating is a secret for some, so why not the testing?
 
who knows what is in Infi or TruSharp?
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I cant tell you about TruSharp, but the makeup of INFI is posted all over the internet, its not hard to find.

Got me curious since the only tester in Vassili's list is the CATRA, what other testing devices are out there? I know about those live and recorded rope cut demo's, but I figure there's got to be other machines or testing methods.
 
leatherman said:
Got me curious since the only tester in Vassili's list is the CATRA, what other testing devices are out there? I know about those live and recorded rope cut demo's, but I figure there's got to be other machines or testing methods.
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This is intention of this thread to clearify who and how do testing edge retention.

CATRA is well known and also it is clear who uses it. But about other testing (if any exist) nobody know about.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
This is intention of this thread to clearify who and how do testing edge retention.

CATRA is well known and also it is clear who uses it. But about other testing (if any exist) nobody know about.

Thanks, Vassili.
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They could test it by hand, like you do. The CATRA test is more heavily influenced by how the blade is sharpened than the steel.
 
brownshoe said:
Lots of knifemakers do edge retention testing. They'd be idiots not to since their users will quickly tell them is the knives don't perform. Materials manufacturer's may not do the testing themselves, but partner with their customers. For example, S30V was developed by Crucible in conjunction with Chris Reeves Kinves, plus others IIRC.

Sometimes the lack of a standardized test is just a testimony to the type of industry. The knife industry, although mature, has always been prey to "secret steels" "secret tests" "secret heat treatment", etc. Even now, who knows what is in Infi or TruSharp? Heat treating is a secret for some, so why not the testing?
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My point is that a similar fate will await them as did the only mfg to release real CATRA data that tested steels (Diamondblade). It took about 5 posts of the first thread about it for some people to accuse them of rigging CATRA tests just to "hype" their new steel. Buck released data that showed a knife of one steel made with good cutting geometry outcut another knife made of slightly better steel with crappy geometry to sell their knives with thinner geometry.

If the knifemaker tests hardness of the finished steel, they do not need to do a CATRA test to make a good assumption that the edge retention will be in the acceptable range for that steel at that hardness. They do need to test for function and test to avoid catastrophic failure and reduce their risk to liability. I suspect "poor edge retention" is used less often than "the knife broke"as a reason to return a knife, and has never been used in a lawsuit against them. Unless you can think of a way you can use CATRA results to sell a bunch of knives, I still think that very few mfgs are rigorously testing edge retention to determine optimum steels or geometries. Without a doubt more effort is devoted to tests designed to to limit liability (avoiding catastrophic failure). The lack of a standardized test just tells me that their is no money in it for anyone in the food chain.

cotdt said:
They could test it by hand, like you do. The CATRA test is more heavily influenced by how the blade is sharpened than the steel.
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Which CATRA test are you talking about - That statement is not true for the CATRA slicing edge retention test. How rough the edge is may influence the initial cutting ability (sharpness), but harder high wear resistant steels will always beat softer less wear resistant steels in the rate of dulling as given by the CATRA slicing test, given equal geometry and initial cutting ability.
 
Broos said:
Which CATRA test are you talking about - That statement is not true for the CATRA slicing edge retention test. How rough the edge is may influence the initial cutting ability (sharpness), but harder high wear resistant steels will always beat softer less wear resistant steels in the rate of dulling as given by the CATRA slicing test, given equal geometry and initial cutting ability.
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What I mean is, a knife sharpened to 30 degrees will cut more cards than another knife sharpened to 90 degrees on the CATRA test. Whereas if you compare two steels at the same hardness, say 440C vs. S30V, S30V only outcut the 440C by 45%. A few degrees difference in sharpening angle would easily make up for it.
 
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