Lock back vs liner lock

[marthinus]

There are a few things to keep in mind:

1. Not all locks are made equal and this can affect the function and reliability of ALL locks: This is more evident in liner lock/ framelock knives. You can read my extensive post that has come along a few years now about liner and framelocks here: My framelock/liner lock post Lockbacks are no different. You get good lockbacks and you get bad ones.

Here are examples from STR about lockbacks being made in different ways:

While working on yet another lockback upgrade for a forum member it occurred to me to post a comparison of two lock backs that are both considered to be very high quality well made folders. Both of these work and work well and there is technically nothing wrong with either one. Both pass spine tap tests. Key word there is taps. I have my doubts about the one passing a whack though.

The next time someone asks you what makes Spyderco so great, think of this thread, this picture, and remember that from the perspective of STR, that has seen the insides of thousands of folders in his life that this is coming from a pretty good source if I do say so myself. The fact is I don't just support Spyderco because of their pretty knives or their fancy blade steel. I know what I'm getting because I've seen it inside and out.

I will not mention the names of either of these knives. If you know please keep it to yourself as this isn't a thread to beat anyones products down. One is obviously a Spyderco, one is not that is all that need be known for the purpose of this thread. But both are sold for a similar price tag and both are lock backs. I'll give you a little help. The top one is the Spyderco.

Note the difference in lock up. Not just the size of the lock but how much of it is connecting to the blade and how deep it seats into the blade. In knife making a couple thousandths is big but a mm is huge. Which would you rather trust your fingers to? Its an open and shut case in my mind.


STR

Another few comments from me about how the lockback has improved the past few years:

It is a shame that the lockback design is not used as much as it used to. IMO it is a wonderful lock when done right (same with liner and framelocks).

For what its worth, I dont know if Chui has seen this, but here is a pdf with some lockback designs towards the end that might help somewhat:

http://www.knifehelp.net/media/docs/Harold_Hoffman_-_Advanced_Knife_Making.pdf

Also, I feel that there have been some improvements to the backlock in the last few years. Here are some IMO that might be of some use. Sorry Chui if I go a bit off topic, but you know me, always looking for an angle to push ones skills :biggrin:

If we have a look at the original concepts and designs, one can see some sharp corners.

Spyderco IMO improved on this with the new design of the Native 5. Less sharp corners.

More can be seen here:
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?51949-Native-5-torn-apart

Of coarse Andrew Demko did a large improvement IMO as well, but increases the complexity of the lock. Here is the Tri-Ad lock compared to the Native 5

and the old Manix (what a knife it was IMO with one of the best lockbacks) compared to the Tri-Ad.

Spyderco also implemented hidden stop pins in the Chaparral:

Personally, I would love to see a backlock with a hidden stop pin. Of coarse the stop pin will have to be at the bottom like the Southard design in the second picture.

2. No matter the lock. A lock can fail severely. Not one of the two is exempted. The failures of linerlocks have been documented extensively, the failures in lockbacks not, but both can fail severely due to misuse, wear and tear, material defect and lack of care by the owner.

The following are areas that I have heard of that can break on a lock back knife but they are unlikely if the knife is properly made:

Pic1
The point of the lock can be worn or break off. The point of the notch on the right hand side can shear off.

Pic2

Right side of the notch can be clogged with lint, causing the lock not to lock up proparly

Pic3.

The pin and the spring can break if not tighten properly or is secure. Springs have broken, influencing lockup safety. The spacer wherein the spring goes can break if materials cannot take the force of the spring or the knife is assembled improperly.

Pic4
The lock can shear from corner to corner.

Now these are all things I have heard happen and some have been posted, others stated. 1,2 and 3 have happened and references can be found with some googling. Number 4 I cant find a reference for. All and all any lock used in a proper manner will not have a catastrophic failure (ie the lock explodes and just becomes useless) if the knife is used properly, well designed and executed. Deciding between the lock you want is a personal choice.

 

[Buffalohump]

Awesome post dude! ^^^

I wish more people/manufacturers would make lock backs/back locks/mid locks... whatever you prefer to call them, I like 'em! To my mind it makes sense to have a lock on the spine of the knife. It makes sense to my hand anyway. Its one of the reasons I like the Tri-AD so much - its a back lock on steroids!

I also like that its totally ambidextrous. Yes it does take a bit more presence of mind when closing the knife due to the tension of the spring, but I have never had a problem.

What I dream about is Spyderco bringing out a special 'retro collectors' issue of their classic lockbacks like the first Manix and original Chinook. How cool would that be? Nothing sells like nostalgia! I also wish more slip joint makers would start putting back locks on their knives. They would certainly become more interesting to me if they did.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

I think you win the thread, Marthinus. Great post. :thumbup:

 

[midnight flyer]

Fantastic post, marthinus. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put up the pics with the annotations. It makes it a lot easier to understand how the locks work, and how they fail.

Nicely done.

Robert

 

[SCWillson]

Awesome post, marthinus! Thank you very much. :thumbup:

All of this has convinced me that my next EDC will be definitely some sort of lock back. Maybe a Tri-Lock, maybe not. Spyderco seems to have implemented similar improvements in at least some of their folders.

 

[Topcatpt]

I really just think the choice between the two is a personal preference. Liner,frame,lockback all work, as long as they are properly done. If you miss use it or do stupid things with it any lock can fail. But the hole lock strenth test stuff 600lbs of pressure what ever is to me overhype. I havent ever said I need a folder that can with stand blank pounds of pressure in the wrong direction of use. If I am doing something I think needs something really strong I will just use a fixed blade. I have hard used some framelocks before and they held up just fine. So the little bit more strength of one type of lock to another really has never effected the use of any of my knives. So, if you prefer lock backs buy a lock back if you like liner locks buy one. My only advice is buy from a company that you know is reputable,and well made.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Awesome post, marthinus! Thank you very much. :thumbup:

All of this has convinced me that my next EDC will be definitely some sort of lock back. Maybe a Tri-Lock, maybe not. Spyderco seems to have implemented similar improvements in at least some of their folders.

Spyderco seems to know what they're doing with their lockbacks. I just received my new Calypso, and that lock bar goes deep into the tang. I'm glad I bought it, and I believe that I can rely on it.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

I own folding knives of comparable quality from several manufacturers and it seems to me that lock back knives may be a bit sturdier than those with liner locks, but I don't have anything except anecdotal evidence to support that. IS there any real difference so far as resisting collapse of the locking mechanism? Or is this a "six of one/half dozen of the other" situation?

Are there any real pluses and/or minuses to the two locking methods?

I am a big fan of lock-backs and most especially the Tri-Ad. One important part is a good specimen linerlock in regards to durability, reliability, strength, etc. will cost you over a $100. Yet still not give you a lock mechanism with more durability, reliability, strength, shock resistance, etc. than a $40 Voyager with Tri-Ad. Buy the knife its very own sharpmaker companion and still save cash.

Of course its not the only thing to determine which knife you get. All summer long I once again used my Voyager like a small fixed blade out in the yard (save for applying lots of torque to the pivot) and it's 100% same incredible lock-up as straight from the box. If I used it the same way I used my Victorinox then it doesn't matter. I have also continued to use it for practicing defense techniques on targets which is very hard on lock mechanisms and a unique reason to go for better than simply OK.

 

[SCWillson]

Spyderco seems to know what they're doing with their lockbacks. I just received my new Calypso, and that lock bar goes deep into the tang. I'm glad I bought it, and I believe that I can rely on it.

Have you ever examined the lock on a Dragonfly 2 G-10? That and the Chaparral (carbon fiber) are the two Spyderco folders I'm leaning towards. Is it safe to assume that the handle material does not change the lockup method used?

I used to have one of the original Calypso 3" solid-micarta-handled folders and absolutely loved it. It was one of the best knives I ever owned. I almost cried when I lost it and found out they were no longer made. I love my Dragonfly SS but man I really miss that Calypso...

 

[SCWillson]

I am a big fan of lock-backs and most especially the Tri-Ad. One important part is a good specimen linerlock in regards to durability, reliability, strength, etc. will cost you over a $100. Yet still not give you a lock mechanism with more durability, reliability, strength, shock resistance, etc. than a $40 Voyager with Tri-Ad. Buy the knife its very own sharpmaker companion and still save cash.

Of course its not the only thing to determine which knife you get. All summer long I once again used my Voyager like a small fixed blade out in the yard (save for applying lots of torque to the pivot) and it's 100% same incredible lock-up as straight from the box. If I used it the same way I used my Victorinox then it doesn't matter. I have also continued to use it for practicing defense techniques on targets which is very hard on lock mechanisms and a unique reason to go for better than simply OK.

While I've always appreciated CS products for their value, I have seldom liked the blade designs on their folders. Just personal preference.

I have several $100+ tactical folders suitable for self-defense; but right now I'm looking for a new EDC folder. That needs to be small (<3" and preferably under 2-1/2") so I don't violate my employer's knife policies and/or freak out non-knife people who see me use it. I work as a security officer and we're not supposed to carry weapons beyond our firearms while on duty, but this is Texas and probably 25% of men do and it's not unusual to see even women with small folders clipped to their front pocket. Here in the Lone Star State a small pocket knife is not considered a weapon by the general public or most employers as long as it's not too tactical looking. Being legal and socially acceptable are not the same thing.

 

[MatthewSB]

Like others said, so long as it's well executed either will work. The best liner locks I've seen was an Al Mar SERE 2000, the liner is very thick and locks up perfectly with no sticking. I have a Spyderco Military that is almost as perfect.

If you're worried about simplicity, the liner lock is far simpler than a back lock, being a single piece of spring steel. A Compression lock is just as simple, but stronger because the steel is compressed across a smaller distance between the blade and the stop pin.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Have you ever examined the lock on a Dragonfly 2 G-10? That and the Chaparral (carbon fiber) are the two Spyderco folders I'm leaning towards. Is it safe to assume that the handle material does not change the lockup method used?

I used to have one of the original Calypso 3" solid-micarta-handled folders and absolutely loved it. It was one of the best knives I ever owned. I almost cried when I lost it and found out they were no longer made. I love my Dragonfly SS but man I really miss that Calypso...

I have not handled those knives, but with a lockback, handle material does not affect lock strength.

 

[pinnah]

Wow. Great post and write up. Will need to study it more.

Doing my best John Cleese... "And now for something completely different..."


I've had 3 recent Buck lock backs so soft on me in the past few years. At the same time, I've Opinels harder than any lock back and can't get them to fail or even wobble. Among other things, the blades will bend before anything else.


Opinel #8 Drop-point 2 by Pinnah, on Flickr

If anybody would like to put this modified #8 to the test, I'm hosting a pass around. Yes, since Opinels lack a spring, they are easy and safe to one-hand open and one-hand close. They aren't fast and not suitable for tactical use (if that's the reason) but they perform well in a shop/work setting.

Details for the pass around are here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1097460-Opinel-Pass-Around-amp-Walk-About

 

[midnight flyer]

I've had 3 recent Buck lock backs so soft on me in the past few years.

You know, that's just weird, and a real shame. You and countless others have reported multiple failings of Buck knife lockups, and "back in the day" as the kids say, there was nothing stronger on the market than the lockup on a 110.

In the 70s that knife was everywhere on the construction scene and most of the knives I saw had only a 50/50 chance of being used as a slicing tool, and the rest of the time they were used as needed for any task at hand. You almost couldn't break that lockup.

And now.... very sad.

Robert

 

[Kwon Kwang]

You know, that's just weird, and a real shame. You and countless others have reported multiple failings of Buck knife lockups, and "back in the day" as the kids say, there was nothing stronger on the market than the lockup on a 110.

In the 70s that knife was everywhere on the construction scene and most of the knives I saw had only a 50/50 chance of being used as a slicing tool, and the rest of the time they were used as needed for any task at hand. You almost couldn't break that lockup.

And now.... very sad.

Robert

Maybe these days, with the advent of the Internet and abuse tests, the knife community is simply harder on their folders than they were "back in the day"?

I've spine whacked my 110 and the lock held up just fine.

 

[JNewell]

Take a look at the Native 5. I bought one recently and have been really impressed by this fifth generation version.

 

[PaulTR]

Lockbacks are my least favorite locking mechanisms, mostly for reasons of speed of deployment and closing. When it comes to opening and smoothness of deployment, you can never get smooth or fast enough to satisfy me...then again, I'm three quarters Italian, so my obsession with Stilletos, autos, and OTFs makes me become a bit illogical at times If I see a lockback on a knife, it's generally a dealbreaker, like tip-down-carry-only or bead blasted blade finish. The maker has to provide me with A LOT of bang for my buck for me to consider a lockback design, and there are very few that do that for me.

All that being said, I respect lockbacks. I don't feel any safer or less-safe using them over liner locks...I just find them mildly inconvenient to open and close. But I am trying to broaden my outlook with them.

As a side note, I think people get too heated on this whole "my lock is stronger than your lock" nonsense. I've seen abuse tests with Triad Locks, Axis Locks, Spyderco ball-bearing locks, Kershaw linerlocks, Chris Reeve framelocks, ect. and you know what all these tests tell me? that there are tons of ingeniously designed locking mechanisms out there that can take abuse far beyond what the average user will ever put it through. Plus, different designs provide people with the freedom to choose what suits them best. And a lock is not all that makes up a good folding knife: you have to consider price, looks, ergos, blade steel, blade shape, carry options, ect. Don't be a lock-snob...be a knife snob

Just my two cents...

 

[SCWillson]

Maybe these days, with the advent of the Internet and abuse tests, the knife community is simply harder on their folders than they were "back in the day"?

I would say it's just as likely in the age of the internet that serious knife users have simply become more aware of failings because they can read about them on Amazon or Facebook or on knife sites like this. Thirty years ago if a guy's knife failed him in Ohio the guy living in Tennessee with the same knife had no idea - but now he can be aware of it almost instantly.

It's similar to crime rate awareness: Violent crime rates have been dropping steadily in the US for over 20 years, but most people think it's just the opposite because we hear about every shooting on CNN or FoxNews even if we live clear across the country. Heck, I'm more aware of the murder rates in Chicago or Detroit than I am of it right here in El Paso.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

I would say it's just as likely in the age of the internet that serious knife users have simply become more aware of failings because they can read about them on Amazon or Facebook or on knife sites like this. Thirty years ago if a guy's knife failed him in Ohio the guy living in Tennessee with the same knife had no idea - but now he can be aware of it almost instantly.

It's similar to crime rate awareness: Violent crime rates have been dropping steadily in the US for over 20 years, but most people think it's just the opposite because we hear about every shooting on CNN or FoxNews even if we live clear across the country. Heck, I'm more aware of the murder rates in Chicago or Detroit than I am of it right here in El Paso.

This is a good post. I like this. :thumbup:

 

[Alberta Ed]

I agree with Benchwarmer340. Used as cutting tools, there's not much difference. I always figured locking devices just made folders less likely to close on your fingers.