Looking For "Sharp out of Box" slip joint.

mnblade said:
I once bought a knife only to find out it wasn't very sharp out of the box.

I sharpened it. :rolleyes:

-- Mark
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I chuckled a little at this.

You're using a Lansky system. It should be super simple to get your knife to shaving sharp in ten minutes, maybe twenty minutes if you need to re profile the primary edge. It sounds like you aren't apexing the edge. Ask about that specific thing in the maintenance and tinkering forum.

As for the other stuff, Case knives aren't just for collecting. That's ridiculous.

Remember that geometry determines how a knife cuts, hardness determines how long.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Many older knives in simple carbon steels were sometimes down in the '40s in HRC hardness, and yet they still can cut like demons because their makeup was pure and fine-grained, and effortlessly simple to maintain.


David
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David, I agree with the rest of your post, but do you have data to back up the 40s claim? That's down in the spring temper range. That seems incredibly low for any knife company.
 
medicevans said:
David, I agree with the rest of your post, but do you have data to back up the 40s claim? That's down in the spring temper range. That seems incredibly low for any knife company.
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It's been mentioned here on the forums, by somebody who had access to the Rockwell testing equipment to check hardness of some older blades (maybe going back 40-50 years or more). It's been a long time since I'd seen that, but I don't have any reason to doubt it. Considering at one time, knives used to be made out of bronze and other softer metals, it's not out of the realm of possibility.


David
 
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My question is this: are there any factory slippies that come sharp, easy to sharpen, retain a decent edge???
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The first thing I do with a new knife is sharpen it, to get the working edge that I want. So I don't care to much how it comes out of the box as long as the manufacturer at least started the edge. The last Buck stockman I got would cut out of the box. The two Queen's I just got one would cut and the other one you could saw back and forth on your finger and not worry about drawing any red liquid.

There are a lot of traditional knives that come ready to cut but at the risk of starting something. I've never seen a production traditional come as what I would consider sharp. Sharp to me is 20 degrees per side, worked with a fine stone or diamond. It's not shaving sharp but rather it's working sharp. The best cutting knife I've ever seen out of the box was a Leatherman multi-tool, itwas ground with at very acute angle but not sharp. Rough ground and very toothy, like a saw.

I think it really depends on what you want out of the knife or steel.
1095 is an old standard with a long history, that many people enjoy. Myself I preferred buck's 420HC, that is until I discovered D2 and 154CM.
1095 and 420HC can be worked with a stone, whereas 154CM and even more so D2, need diamonds especially to re-profile.
From my experience with the steels I've used, here's my list from best to worse for edge retention.
D2
154Cm
Bucks 420HC
Case TrueSharp 420HC
1095
For ease of sharpening easiest to hardest.
1095
Case TrueSharp
Buck 420HC
154CM
D2
 
Thunderwood said:
The last 4 slipjoint knives I bought (case cv and bear and son carbon) came dull as a banana! Few of them even kept an edge after sharpening with a lansky!? I've been told on other forums that these knives are meant for collecting not using. I looked into GEC but I'm getting similar reviews.

My question is this: are there any factory slippies that come sharp, easy to sharpen, retain a decent edge???
Or is that a thing of the past?
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I usually get good sharp blades from Case. I generally stay away from bear and son.

Case is a little soft, but they are easy to sharpen. They generally hold an edge for me. I'm careful not to roll an edge with what I'm doing though..... I'll also drag it through a little wood to strip off the rolled edges. I also found that even with a DMT Aligner (like a Lansky) that I didn't really know what I was doing until I got a 30X hand held lighted microscope to see if I was going far enough with my work. I understand it much better now.

knarfeng said:
I think most of the posters in the Traditional Forum use at least some of their knives. A lot of us are primarily "users", not "collectors". Personally, I use all of mine. And I am a steel junky at heart, so I fuss about edge retention.

I sharpen every knife I buy, whether it be modern or Traditional. I find that Buck does about the best job of providing an out-of-the-box sharp blade.

As for maintaining an edge, I'll get flack for saying this, but the brands you list are known for running their steel soft.

Best brands for edge retention are:
Queen D2 blades.
Schatt & Morgan (Queen) "File and Wire" Series ATS-34
Canal Street 14-4 Cr-Mo (same composition as 154CM and ATS-34)
GEC 440C blades
GEC O1
GEC 1095
Opinel stainless

I put O1 and 1095 at the bottom because those alloys do not contain carbides and therefore inherently do not have the edge retention of a carbide containing alloy. But all these brands run their steel harder than the brands you list and have superior edge retention to those knives.
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This. I do find Case to be quite acceptable though.
 
For out-of-the-box usable sharpness: Victorinox, followed by Opinel, A.G. Russell, Boker Magnum, Utica/Buck, Boker (Germany), followed by Case, then GEC, then CSC and Bear, with Queen a distant last. I'm basing that on handling at least 100 specimens from each maker (except CSC--I've only seen 10 or 11 from them).

Until you get into some of the more-modern steels (D2, 52100, etc), I don't see a lot of difference in ease-of-sharpening if you know how to sharpen that particular steel. As mentioned by others, here are "tricks" to sharpening steels like 420. (That assumes the blade was correctly ground at the factory, and you don't have to finish grinds or re-bevel the blade.)

To some extent, edge-holding depends on steels and angles and what you are doing with the knife. It is always a trade-off. Historically, 1095 has been chosen because it works out well at most angles, for most of what people do with a pocketknife.
 
Victorinox and Rough Rider tend to be sharp out of the box. But honestly I think the better bet is to learn how to sharpen (free hand or guided setup) or send it to someone to sharpen like Richard J this way your not limiting yourself on what to get in terms of knives and praying your knife comes sharp out of the box. Plus the option to put a more acute angle on a knife to make it cut better gives you quite an improvement in cutting ability, more so than you think if you never reprofiled a knife before.
 
It is not unreasonable to expect a new pocket knife to be sharp upon purchase. I buy a knife with this consideration in mind and always wonder
what I'm supposed to think when my new GEC/Queen/Case is a butterknife when I receive it. Does the manufacturer think this is OK, acceptable,
or expected? I think it shows a lack of respect towards the customer. How come a $30 SAK is shaving sharp and a $100 GEC needs time on the
stones? I just don't get it...

Victorinox is the best for initial sharpness. Bought 2 Cadets and a Ranger recently and they are all scalpel sharp.
 
I won't add anything as to edge retention... but, as for sharp out of the box, I will agree with those that have mentioned Rough Riders.
I was so used to edges coming only so so on sharpness, that I had let my guard down. I got careless while cleaning up a new RR, and it cut me, not once, but twice!
All the RR I've received have been sharper than the average production knife.
They certainly brought my respect back in handling knives... I mean, ouch, those cuts hurt, lol! ;)
 
I've had solid out-of-box sharpness from Boker (Solingen Tree Brand) also. Definately hard to beat Victorinox's 'soft & sharp' methodology though.
 
I have to say it, Rough riders are the sharpest out of the box knives that I have handled. I did a small cutting comparison between three case knives out of the box against three RR, I matched the blades carefully and the angle of attack. Hate to say it but the RRs won in every case, and on one comparison of two sabre blades the RR Killed the Case by dozens of cuts. The tooth grind has something to do with certain types of cutting and RRs are toothy, but I have done polished edges on RRs and they cut better. A fairer test would be to reprofile the edges to match and do a cutting comparison.
Opinels come wicked sharp as well.

Best regards

Robin
 
Just for the record, I appreciate the info an suggestions. But I can sharpen my knives. Usually free hand unless it's just a tricky one. My problem is this: I pay 50-100 dollars on a knife and it's dull. I pay 10-20 on a sak or rr and hair popping sharp?!
 
Thunderwood said:
Just for the record, I appreciate the info an suggestions. But I can sharpen my knives. Usually free hand unless it's just a tricky one. My problem is this: I pay 50-100 dollars on a knife and it's dull. I pay 10-20 on a sak or rr and hair popping sharp?!
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Don't know what to say. The Case knives I get are pretty sharp... if not... i sharpen them after i force a patina.
 
Thunderwood said:
Just for the record, I appreciate the info an suggestions. But I can sharpen my knives. Usually free hand unless it's just a tricky one. My problem is this: I pay 50-100 dollars on a knife and it's dull. I pay 10-20 on a sak or rr and hair popping sharp?!
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I started my knife interest with Spyderco. When I got a few nicely finished bone and wood traditionals I wondered why I ever spent $50 or $100 on plastic knives ...but it's because they dedicate resources to finish the blades! I'm not interested or able to totally reprofile my knives, so I'll be resorting to a sharpening service for several dull slipjoints. If sharpening is work and not a hobby, you may as well add the cost of your own labor into the knife.
 
Yes, you are right: a new knife should come decently sharp, cause it's a knife and it's supposed to cut.
Yet, most people like to sharpen their knives right out of the box, so SOA (sharpness on arrival) is not perceived as a big problem by many people here.
Also, as long as the grind is right and the bevel is even, a dull knife is the "best" flaw you can accept in a new knife, since it's easily fixed with no trouble.

Fausto
:cool:
 
knarfeng said:
I think most of the posters in the Traditional Forum use at least some of their knives. A lot of us are primarily "users", not "collectors". Personally, I use all of mine. And I am a steel junky at heart, so I fuss about edge retention.

I sharpen every knife I buy, whether it be modern or Traditional. I find that Buck does about the best job of providing an out-of-the-box sharp blade.

As for maintaining an edge, I'll get flack for saying this, but the brands you list are known for running their steel soft.

Best brands for edge retention are:
Queen D2 blades.
Schatt & Morgan (Queen) "File and Wire" Series ATS-34
Canal Street 14-4 Cr-Mo (same composition as 154CM and ATS-34)
GEC 440C blades
GEC O1
GEC 1095
Opinel stainless

I put O1 and 1095 at the bottom because those alloys do not contain carbides and therefore inherently do not have the edge retention of a carbide containing alloy. But all these brands run their steel harder than the brands you list and have superior edge retention to those knives.
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Good info, cheers Knarfeng, this is a question that has bothered me as well. I have to agree with Jackknife about the Victorinox, I have had 8 so far and have 0 complaints about them.
 
Victorinox, as a company, is an amazing model of efficiency and extreme quality control. Duncan had a giveaway here a couple years ago and I won a book about Victorinox. It was incredibly interesting to see inside their facilities. They are what every knife company should be regarding efficiency.
 
I must be blessed, all of my Case and SAK knives have all come razor sharp out of the box.:confused: In fact, the only knives I've owned or still own that were rather "dull" from the factory were non-traditional USA made fixed blades.
 
quattromori said:
Yes, you are right: a new knife should come decently sharp, cause it's a knife and it's supposed to cut.
Yet, most people like to sharpen their knives right out of the box, so SOA (sharpness on arrival) is not perceived as a big problem by many people here.
Also, as long as the grind is right and the bevel is even, a dull knife is the "best" flaw you can accept in a new knife, since it's easily fixed with no trouble.

Fausto
:cool:
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That's well put, Fausto. I tend to view a dull(ish) new edge as an initiation into proper knife ownership; one that encourages the new owner to do what they'll eventually and repeatedly have to do anyway, if the new knife is to remain useful in the long run. Sort of a gift that keeps on giving, as I see it (in the slightly warped view of a knife nut, anyway ;)).


David
 
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