Love Thine Enemy

B

Ben Arown-Awile

Banned
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
889
Like many Americans, I am appalled at the recent pictures of the Iraqi prisoners being mistreated.

If my dog hadn't eaten them, I would have sent in my collection of VC ears and scrotums in protest.
 
sometimes I wish I had the meds you guys have....



:eek: :p
 
You know, I've done a lot of stupid juvenile stuff, but I never felt the need to photograph the evidence.
 
if god didn't want us to take war trophys he wouldn't have made finger bones so easy to string into a necklace

 
demon tessu said:
if god didn't want us to take war trophys...
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My mom says the same thing. Constantly. Incessantly, actually. Kind of makes me wonder why she even bothers sending notes to the families.
 
What those soldiers did is going to be the best thing to help Al Quaida since we sold them arms and helped them out when they were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Those pictures will be used for terrorist recruitment videos for years to come. Any disciplinary actions against the soldiers will get far less airplay, especially in the middle east. Bin Laden should send them all medals.
 
There would be far less of this type of stuff going on if our leaders had the cohones to just drop the big one and be done with that crap! We need to finish at least one war we get involved with , a paint ball war won't cut it. Do it right the first time and be done with it
 
smokinbasser said:
There would be far less of this type of stuff going on if our leaders had the cohones to just drop the big one and be done with that crap! We need to finish at least one war we get involved with , a paint ball war won't cut it. Do it right the first time and be done with it
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But aren't you advocating doing pretty much the same thing that Saddam did when his people rose up? Corporal punishment for rising up? Wasn't that his reason for using gas on the Kurds and Shiites? Aren't these same people that will be killed the same people we said we were helping because they were being brutally punished?

When WMD didn't show up we said that it was still worthwhile to go in because Saddam was a brutal dictator who killed en masse. Aren't you advocating doing the same thing?

If we want to claim moral authority to go in and do pre emptive strikes and change governments don't you think that we have to demonstrate a higher morality than the people we are going after?

True I think the whole mess is like Vietnam, a no win situation, but I think we are damaging our credibility enough to really guarantee we will be going it alone in Iraq and possibly other places for years to come.

You can drop the big one when you are fighting an army and kill them, but when you are fighting THE POPULATION in an urban guerilla war the only way you are going to win is by committing genocide like Saddam did and you advocate and I don't think we are willing to be that hypocritical (yet)
 
Hollowdweller - I am in full agreement with you. I don't think that we are ever going to impose our world view on a radical Muslim population. We already gave up on this in Saudi Arabia.

But - our big Kahuna has put our soldiers in a very untenable position. The marines took lots of losses at Fallujah. They talked tough and told the population that they were going to clean up the creeps who killed Americans, make them give up their weapons, & stop them from roaming the streets killing and maiming.

Then, what does our brave government do - we decide to handcuff our soldiers and tell them to pull back. If I were a soldier in that marine group, or any soldier in Iraq, I would not be too happy with this. We are telling our soldiers to sit there, take casualties, and not defend themselves.

Talk about a no win situation.... I am no advocate of war, but if we are not going to let our soldiers do their job, and defend themselves, we should get them out of there - fast. If we keep them there, then we have to give them enough support - both in men and supplies and morale - to let them do what we tell them they need to do. If we tell them to just sit there and take casualties, that does not deter aggression, and it makes America look even crazier to the world. This wimp strategy is likely to encourage more attacks on Americans - it already is taking place in Saudi Arabia.

My preference is to turn the mess over to the UN, and bring our troops home. This is just a personal view, but it is now shared by lots of people, conservatives and liberals alike.

Frankly, if we keep our troops in Iraq, then we should give them what it takes to protect themselves....If they stay there, then it is time to listen to the generals.
 
My preference is to turn the mess over to the UN, and bring our troops home. This is just a personal view, but it is now shared by lots of people, conservatives and liberals alike.
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The question will be if the UN will accept it to take over the "mess". The UN were against this war. They are VERY unlikely to engage when the lives of soldiers are at risk.

These photos of mistreated Iraqi prisoners showing up were only a matter of time. Things like that happen in war - and they are wrong. They are wrong from the standpoint of humanity and (if you should not like this) they are wron because the whole "mission" is even more endangered now. What will happen to US-soldiers taken prisoner by Iraqis now? This generates hatred - and if it should show that the new photos showing "British" soldiers mistreating prisoners are false then someone is so guilty of producing hatred that will lead to too much suffering. If the photos are true - then these soldiers have to carry the same guilt. I fear their own comrades and countries (and the whole western world) will suffer from this.

There was a German film some years ago, named "Das Experiment" - I do not know if anyone in the US got to see it. The film showed a psychological experiment made during the 70s (if I remember right) with volunteers as "prisoners" and "wardens" (right word?) who had near absolute power during the time of the experiment. It ended desastrous and with some dead volunteers. This shows what happened in various concentration camps in Germany (were mistreating prisoners even was rewarded) and what happened in POW-camps in different wars. Sadists exist, dumb people exist - and I guess everyone of us could be made into a sadist if he/she was told the right things, given the right rewards or enough freedom and time.

Sad these soldiers had the freedom and were given such absolute power over the prisoners. They produced potential suicide bombers - and the media multiplicated the hatred (this is only natural, because it is a "story" - I do not want to censor the media) - it is out of hand.
Andreas
 
The idea that the behavior of a few stupid bad soldiers is going to get us in trouble with Al Queda and the Arab world is not logical. We are already in trouble with same, and the lies they tell about us now are far worse than this single episode.

They didn't need an incident. As far as they are concerned, when we invaded Iraq, we killed civilians and raped women and butchered babies. Right now Falludja (sic) has become a rallying cry for the radical elements in the Arab world; they see our failure to succeed there as proof of our neutured status.

If snipers hide in Mosques in Faluddja- we should blow the Mosques apart after warning. Don't expect a 'fair' coverage on this topic- instead- send a message, break a few Mosques, and crush the opposition. This will carry more real weight than all the BS in currency now.

If we try to fight by extra 'nice' rules, we will neither win nor get credit for being compassionate. Half measures avail us nothing- being given no favorable review by the French, (who were bought by Saddam) or the UN, which was in business with Saddam, or socialist Europe- which wants to pull troops out of Iraq if 'the terrorists will leave us alone" an incredible offer made by Bin Laden himself. Funny how explosions were going off in Spain even after they elected a 'nice' socialist for President.

munk
 
munk said:
The idea that the behavior of a few stupid bad soldiers is going to get us in trouble with Al Queda and the Arab world is not logical. We are already in trouble with same, and the lies they tell about us now are far worse than this single episode.

They didn't need an incident. As far as they are concerned, when we invaded Iraq, we killed civilians and raped women and butchered babies. Right now Falludja (sic) has become a rallying cry for the radical elements in the Arab world; they see our failure to succeed there as proof of our neutured status.

If snipers hide in Mosques in Faluddja- we should blow the Mosques apart after warning. Don't expect a 'fair' coverage on this topic- instead- send a message, break a few Mosques, and crush the opposition. This will carry more real weight than all the BS in currency now.

If we try to fight by extra 'nice' rules, we will neither win nor get credit for being compassionate. Half measures avail us nothing- being given no favorable review by the French, (who were bought by Saddam) or the UN, which was in business with Saddam, or socialist Europe- which wants to pull troops out of Iraq if 'the terrorists will leave us alone" an incredible offer made by Bin Laden himself. Funny how explosions were going off in Spain even after they elected a 'nice' socialist for President.

munk
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This is true. No win situation.

I think that the European countries though, through intelligence are doing about as good a job of rounding up the actual terrorists(not the Iraqui terrorists we created by invading) as we are with our military solution. I think we did a good job in Afghanistan nobody else had the balls to do, but we've been going backward since then.

True if we pull out it's a sign of weakness (plus possibly allowing the country to become like Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out) and if we stay in it's more bad PR.

Eventually though it will either come to the point that either things settle down or we cut our losses and pull out. I just hope we don't wait as long as we did in Vietnam to decide to give it up.
 
The idea that the behavior of a few stupid bad soldiers is going to get us in trouble with Al Queda and the Arab world is not logical. We are already in trouble with same, and the lies they tell about us now are far worse than this single episode.
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agreed - but the Arabs who support the US will have d more difficult time now. These incidents is "proven" and may make some people wonder if they are on "the right side" - especially if they are under pressure from neighbors and family. This is not only a way to make enemies but to loose sympatisants.

Funny how explosions were going off in Spain even after they elected a 'nice' socialist for President.
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Sorry Munk, but that is far from "funny" in my book. It was worse. The elections (14th march) were AFTER the bombings (11th march). And they were influenced by the bombings. So we have a case were Al Quaeda seems to have had influence on democratic elections - this is something to worry about!

Andreas
 
munk said:
The idea that the behavior of a few stupid bad soldiers is going to get us in trouble with Al Queda and the Arab world is not logical. We are already in trouble with same, and the lies they tell about us now are far worse than this single episode.

They didn't need an incident. As far as they are concerned, when we invaded Iraq, we killed civilians and raped women and butchered babies. Right now Falludja (sic) has become a rallying cry for the radical elements in the Arab world; they see our failure to succeed there as proof of our neutured status.

If snipers hide in Mosques in Faluddja- we should blow the Mosques apart after warning. Don't expect a 'fair' coverage on this topic- instead- send a message, break a few Mosques, and crush the opposition. This will carry more real weight than all the BS in currency now.

If we try to fight by extra 'nice' rules, we will neither win nor get credit for being compassionate. Half measures avail us nothing- being given no favorable review by the French, (who were bought by Saddam) or the UN, which was in business with Saddam, or socialist Europe- which wants to pull troops out of Iraq if 'the terrorists will leave us alone" an incredible offer made by Bin Laden himself. Funny how explosions were going off in Spain even after they elected a 'nice' socialist for President.

munk
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> I think real incidents can be used to "prove" imagined/invented incidents. Reasoning by false analogy is often powerful.

> Does anyone think we can be "tougher" than the Nazis in the USSR or the Japanese in China? Was there violent resistance where they used violence with no practical restraint? Did they "solve" their problems with unrestrauined violence?

> We have "blown up" multiple religious sites in Iraq over the last year. Are you arguing for "The horror, the horror" as a solution? What if the targets want to die if they can take an infidel with them? They are, after all, "illogical."

> The UN was "in business with Saddam"? I see the UN as relatively ineffectual, and bureaucrats always want more power and more money, but this sounds like "The UN is in business with the Reds." Don't give the UN too much credit.

> The explosions in Spain went off BEFORE the election. The incumbent government blamed the explosions on ETA. When it quickly became clear it was the "other" terrorists and not ETA, the electorate threw the government out.

> Islamic terrorists have been killing in Europe for thirty years.

> We have "rules" so we don't become worse than those we fight. Our young people deserve to fight for something worthy of honorable recollection.

> As a culture, we have too little patience, too little knowledge of history or other cultures, and too ready a resort to "simple" solutions -- that frequently "solve" nothing.

IMHO
 
The Muslim nation does not think like us or have values like us. You can accomplish more with a quart of pigs blood than any thing else.
 
No one is talking about becoming worse than our enemies- that is a leap that I did not state. I'm mildly surprised somone went there. There are rules of engagment- fired upon- fire back. I am only arguing those rules remain in effect. To tie a hand behind our back is not logical- as we will get no credit for 'mercy' and in these cases, it is not mercy to allow terrorists to survive- it is just plain suicidal.

Pan Tau- The authorities tracked terrorists to a building- I believe they blew themselves up after the big rail explosions,intending to injure as many innocents as they could, and the Spanish authorities also found explosives on more train track- laid after the big incident. The point being is that no negotiation is likely to be effective with terrorists. And Spain's captitulation will not hold or be good barter to criminals.

Democrats , libertarians, and conservatives, however outraged at how this came to be- acknowledge we cannot afford to lose in Iraq. That is reality.


munk
 
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