Love Thine Enemy

Sams:
The Muslim nation does not think like us or have values like us. You can accomplish more with a quart of pigs blood than any thing else.


Is there a "Muslim nation"?
I actually think that there are some values that are shared: For example: "If you invade my country I will resist." - "If you mistreat my father, brother or someone I feel related to I will not like you or trust you or anyone I think you are related to." - "If you make a war not only against my country but against my religion (--> pig´s blood) then I will fight back not only against your country but against all the followers of your religion."

You are absolutely right. You would accomplish a lot with a quart of pig`s blood. You would accomplish something you would not like - YOU would create something like a Muslim nation. Now they are divided, some even supportive - your quart of pig´s blood would unite "the" Muslims with the Terrorists you are after.

Munk
The point being is that no negotiation is likely to be effective with terrorists. And Spain's captitulation will not hold or be good barter to criminals.

right. Never negotiate with terrorists, end what you have started (should have been done in 1990). But we were not talking about negotiating with terrorists but about mistreatment of prisoners and the effects. The terrorists who make the trouble in Iraq are seen as "freedom fighters" by several Iraqis. If things like shown on these photos come to light more often, the number of supporters of these freedom fighters will grow. The US was not very careful with supporting what would now be called terrorists in Afghanistan or Latin-America.

Andreas
 
munk said:
No one is talking about becoming worse than our enemies- that is a leap that I did not state. I'm mildly surprised somone went there. There are rules of engagment- fired upon- fire back. I am only arguing those rules remain in effect. To tie a hand behind our back is not logical- as we will get no credit for 'mercy' and in these cases, it is not mercy to allow terrorists to survive- it is just plain suicidal.
munk

Munk, sorry. But read the post that started this thread. And "drop the big one." I respectfully think we need to be more clever than "Kill 'em. Kill 'em all." We need more than just force. Even the maximum uses of force have not quaranteed victory.

(Anyone want to discuss khukuris?)
 
right. Never negotiate with terrorists, end what you have started (should have been done in 1990). But we were not talking about negotiating with terrorists but about mistreatment of prisoners and the effects. The terrorists who make the trouble in Iraq are seen as "freedom fighters" by several Iraqis. If things like shown on these photos come to light more often, the number of supporters of these freedom fighters will grow. The US was not very careful with supporting what would now be called terrorists in Afghanistan or Latin-America.

Andreas

I'm uncertain what your point is- we are going to prosecute those people who abused prisoners within the fullest extent of the law. As we should.
And Andreas- no one is 'very careful' supporting what later become 'terrorists' Hindsight is wonderful. You pays your money and takes your chances. Fighing an occupation of the Soviet Union is far different than fighting people who blow up civilians in buses, restaurants, or World Trade Centers.
It is a myth the occupation of Iraq could have been planned better- sure- life can always be better if one knew beforehand the outcome- we don't.
Personally, I think we should have encouraged a return to Islam and a more democratic government in the Middle Eastern nations 20 to 30 years ago- but what good is this hindsight?

ANd today- I'm uncertain how much pressure we should put to Iran- the pop wants more democracy. One of the goals of Iraq was to indirectly accomplish this.

munk
 
not my problem, Thomas- you quoted my post in it's entirety, which made no point nor mention of behaving outside the conventions. Then you went on to argue against doing just that. You've confused me with other posters. Your name is Thomas- the thoughtful one, and my name is munk.

We actually agree.


munk
 
Munk:
I'm uncertain what your point is- we are going to prosecute those people who abused prisoners within the fullest extent of the law. As we should. And Andreas- no one is 'very careful' supporting what later become 'terrorists' Hindsight is wonderful. You pays your money and takes your chances. Fighing an occupation of the Soviet Union is far different than fighting people who blow up civilians in buses, restaurants, or World Trade Centers.

Yes - and they must be prosecuted. The problem is
1. that this was possible - the guards in this prison seemed to have too much power and not enough control. (The US also fails to falsify certain rumors about Guantanamo bay btw. - no convention or law protects the prisoners there)
2. In the 80s the US was persuing a policy that said "my enemie`s enemy is my friend" and they did not look to close (supporting Saddam vs. Iran, the Taliban vs. the USSR). This is understandable as war is a dirty game. But to the common citizen in Iraq it looks like this:
They lived in a state that suppressed islamistic tendencies (among others)very much - 911 took place far away. Iraqis did not feel responsible for 911 - maybe they liked the terrible news (because my enemie`s enemy is my friend...) but they did not feel related. WMDs could not be found - second cause for war has failed in their eyes. Now the US and other countries are "occupants" in their eyes. And the US are THE "enemy" in the Arab world of the middle east. A common enemy (like the USSR in postwar Germany) would be uniting - but this is not the case as the Arabs hate Israel and identify Israel and the US as hostile. The state (whether they liked Saddam or not) is no longer, the second uniting structure they can rely on is faith. The "occupants" were "liberators" first but a lot of good credit was lost and is lost by reports, rumors etc. - and now these pictures that seem to prove the rumors....

Iraq will not be pacified until it breaks apart. Because to pacify Iraq would mean to reign with so much force and military that it would be counterproductive to the aims of the US - but right now this counterproductive behaviour seems to be attempted.

First they will try to throw out the "occupants", then they will make civil war. It is a mad situation. I do not doubt the US had good intentions but it failed to show them to the "little man" and G.W. Bush speaking of a "crusade"(!) did not make things better.

Just ask yourself: The US freed Iraq to get rid of Saddam (- accomplished) - and to impose democracy (- failed). But if democratic elections were held today, we would see an islamistic Republic of Iraq - and no more democratic elections for ages. All of the artificial (i.e. mulitethnic) postwar (WWI) states broke apart (USSR, Yugoslavia, CSSR). Iraq will follow I fear - and this will destabilize the region.

Sorry. good intentions, bad result so far. Let´s hope the best.
(and sorry for the long post)

edit - I think we have come far from our original argument. I must admit that it was smokinbasser´s and sam´s posts that disturbed me quite a bit. I will read on tomorrow, it is near midnight here now - bye.

Andreas
 
Andreas- not so bad. Don Nelson pointed out that Khadafi surrendered his nuclear materials because of the war in Iraq. Lets see what Iran does. And Iraq is a war zone with the very people we don't want in Downtown NY setting devices. I almost wish we could encourage more State sanctioned terrorists and outsiders to join in. Surely the present chaos is better than the systematic slaughter of innocents that Saddam enjoyed. 85% of the nation is steadily improving. Sometimes I wish we could wall off Bagdad and the Sunnis and let them go.
We can't very well impose a democracy on a place that was never a nation and is having a civil war. But we'll do something better than Saddam. Letting Iraq spend it's own oil revenues foolishly would be a start. I think it takes a certain amount of corruption before people get mad enough to change.

Yes, it's a mess. But remember one criticism of VN was we were not allowed to win. The definition of 'winning' may have to be revised to a situation bad but other than Saddam.

edit- Andreas- all over the world prisoners suffer. They suffer in your hometown and they suffer in mine. They suffer in China and they suffer in US led military installations. It this is preventable, the world has not begun to invest the time money and resources neccesary to correct it.
munk
 
Let´s hope things will work out in wonderous ways - yes it is a mess but we agree that some things need to be done. I only wish somtimes things could be done in a better way.
Thank you - once again one of these "forum discussions" with quite a high level of respect and good points.

Andreas
 
Pan Tau, I apologize for offendeing you. :(

My comment was directed towards the idiots tortuing prisonors.
The biggest problem gathering intelligence is understanding how differently people think even though we are all human. ;)
Until the US forces understand the minds of their enemies, nothing is going be solved in the middle east.
 
Nobody has ever convinced me of anything by overpowering me and beating me up. I have never seen an argument that turned into a fistfight end by the person who got the worse end of it getting up and saying " You know, after you beat the h*ll out of me I see your point now"

There are certain instances where it is a good idea to totally eliminate the people who are against you. Like the Al Quaida guys. However a popular revolt can't really be quelled in that manner without resorting to continual harassment and intimidation, and that is not possible if the aim is a democratic society.
 
sams - never mind. After all we are HI forumites and all uncle`s guests here - and this being an American forum I am even more "guest".
It would be a problem if we all agreed all the time - then something would be wrong... ;)

Andreas
 
Pan Tau- I once observed on this forum that men always dehumanize other men before hurting them.


I've observed very few things that are 'right' in life. I see the best of nations survive their troubles long enough to pass them on to the next generation.


munk
 
I think this is appropriate to post here. I received this by email from an old Commander of mine. If not applicable, I'm sure UB or Rusty will delete it.

Immigration Monster

We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant.

Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'" "Here is how they do it," Lamm said:

"Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. "The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malyasia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.

Lamm went on: "Invent 'multi-culturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds. "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multi-cultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'

Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other." "A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unim"" From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate." "Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them." In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. The profound silence followed. Finally he said,

"Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia; His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength." Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.
 
munk said:
The idea that the behavior of a few stupid bad soldiers is going to get us in trouble with Al Queda and the Arab world is not logical. We are already in trouble with same, and the lies they tell about us now are far worse than this single episode.

They didn't need an incident. As far as they are concerned, when we invaded Iraq, we killed civilians and raped women and butchered babies. Right now Falludja (sic) has become a rallying cry for the radical elements in the Arab world; they see our failure to succeed there as proof of our neutured status.

If snipers hide in Mosques in Faluddja- we should blow the Mosques apart after warning. Don't expect a 'fair' coverage on this topic- instead- send a message, break a few Mosques, and crush the opposition. This will carry more real weight than all the BS in currency now.

If we try to fight by extra 'nice' rules, we will neither win nor get credit for being compassionate. Half measures avail us nothing- being given no favorable review by the French, (who were bought by Saddam) or the UN, which was in business with Saddam, or socialist Europe- which wants to pull troops out of Iraq if 'the terrorists will leave us alone" an incredible offer made by Bin Laden himself. Funny how explosions were going off in Spain even after they elected a 'nice' socialist for President.

munk


Well said, Munk.
 
Pan Tau said:
agreed - but the Arabs who support the US will have d more difficult time now. These incidents is "proven" and may make some people wonder if they are on "the right side" - especially if they are under pressure from neighbors and family. This is not only a way to make enemies but to loose sympatisants.



Sorry Munk, but that is far from "funny" in my book. It was worse. The elections (14th march) were AFTER the bombings (11th march). And they were influenced by the bombings. So we have a case were Al Quaeda seems to have had influence on democratic elections - this is something to worry about!

Andreas

Andreas;

You are correct that it isn't funny. When Americans say something is "funny" in a context like this, they mean it is "odd" or "ironic", not something that inspires laughter.

You are correct that the explosions happened before the election, but less than two weeks after the election, Spanish railway workers found at least one bomb (I think it was two, but I don't recall, but at least one bomb) placed to derail a passenger train.

Despite Spain's ouster of a pro-Iraq war government, they are not out of the cross hairs. There is no reason to believe that Basque insurgents won't make alliances with anti-American forces and acquire the WMD's that we are trying to keep Al Qaeda from acquiring.

What puzzles me is how little press play the story of last week Jordanian security forces snagged I believe some 50 terrorist suspects who had smuggled 22 tons of explosives AND VX NERVE GAS into Jordan from Syria. Current intelligence confirms that Syria never had, nor currently has VX nerve gas in its military stockpiles - but Saddam Hussein of Iraq did.

A lot of people in the intel community believe Saddam smuggled his WMD's into Syria. There wasn't one nation on earth prior to this recent Iraq invasion who doubted that Saddam had stockpiles of nerve agent. Had they doubted it they would have never supported the SEVENTEEN UN resolutions demanding Saddam offer the stuff up for inspection and verification.

Jordanian officials calculate that if that nerve gas attack had gone off as planned, EIGHTY THOUSAND people, almost all of them Jordanian, would have died, and easily three times that number injured.

So, what exactly did Jordan do to the terrorists? I haven't seen any photos of Jordanian troops in Iraq, nor of them torturing or humiliating Iraqi prisoners.

Don
 
I've created some confusion with 'explosions after the election"
Spanish authorities tracked down terrorists to a apartment complex, and rather than surrender, the terrorists blew themselves up and much building too, intending to hurt the police, and anyonelse unfortunate enough to be in the area. This was reported by various news outlets at the same time as the explosives were found on rail lines- well after the elections.

The point is simply that even if Bin Laden told you he'd leave you alone if you'd pull out of Iraq- various other terrorists would not. This assumes Bin Laden would keep his own word.


munk
 
lcs37 said:
I think this is appropriate to post here. I received this by email from an old Commander of mine. If not applicable, I'm sure UB or Rusty will delete it.

Immigration Monster

We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant.

Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream. Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'" "Here is how they do it," Lamm said:

"Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. "The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malyasia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.

Lamm went on: "Invent 'multi-culturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds. "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multi-cultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'

Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other." "A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unim"" From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate." "Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them." In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. The profound silence followed. Finally he said,

"Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia; His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength." Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

Although I agree in principle with the concepts of this article, I tend to believe that this is an internet urban legend post.

Also, Richard Lamm is a Democrat. The current American Democratic Party supports just about every notion above that the supposed Lamm says is counter-productive to America. I would be very, very surprised to see if Lamm's legislative history matches his alleged comments above.

Don
 
guys...keep the quotes in your posts trimmed please...only include the part you're referring to. For a good example, see any of Cliff Stamps rebuttals....:D :eek:
 
I don't know if it's an e rumor or not, but it raises a lot of good points. I am a Democrat but really for limiting immigration.

The oil supply is finite. We use a disproportionate amount of the worlds oil. Despite outsourcing a good %age of our energy hogging manufacturing base to the third world and then shipping the goods back here we have continued to consume more oil. When immigrants move here, rather than preserving the culture they came from as far as energy consumption, they adopt our wasteful style.

In the Middle East the Israelis have like a 2 per family average birth rate. The Palestinians like 5 or 6 per family. You can see how a democracy like Israel would be afraid to agree to "the right of return" under those circumstances. In a matter of a few years they could be outvoted.

One of our great strengths here was that we are a "mongrel nation" as the Japanese Prime Minister once put it.
 
Anyone who has ever lived in a border state with Mexico is usually against illegal immigration.
as for America, the Land of gluts, if we stopped consuming, the world's economy would collapse, hurting particularly those emerging third world nation's with their cheap labor markets. So every issue is never simple.

For the cost of war- illegal immigration spends a great deal of our money. It was once true that illegals brought more than they took; no more, with health care, education, and other costs. Actually, the War on Drugs spends more of our money yet; I'd like to see that ended.



There is a virulent anti immigration site founded by Samuel Francis. He used to be a fairly respected conservative commentator. I think his anti immigration views became too strong for the mainstream. If I recall correctly, the site's name was V Dare. I'll go look it up.


munk
 
Hi, Hollowdweller;

You wrote, "The oil supply is finite. We use a disproportionate amount of the worlds oil. Despite outsourcing a good %age of our energy hogging manufacturing base to the third world and then shipping the goods back here we have continued to consume more oil. When immigrants move here, rather than preserving the culture they came from as far as energy consumption, they adopt our wasteful style."

Me: The part of American civilization that consumes the most oil are privately owned automobiles. Most US industry is run on electricity.

And, we may use a disproportionate amount of the world's oil, but we also pay for it. Let's not imply that America simply "steals" the oil. The oil is offered up for sale by OPEC nations, and the US buys it - along with Japan, Canada and Europe. In fact, the relatively high sales price of oil that the OPEC nations enjoy, is BECAUSE of the US's high demand for it.

Immigrants leaving behind their less oil-dependant lifestyle? Maybe that has something to do with them not being able to afford cars where they lived before. Maybe America's better job market and stronger economy make it possible for them to actually buy cars and put gasoline into them.

Maybe it's because in America, cities and residential areas are so spread out and mass transit systems so lacking that they need cars to get around. (shrug)

Don
 
Back
Top